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Crankshaft HP rating

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  • Crankshaft HP rating

    What is the 9000 Scat Crank ďrealisticĒ horsepower capability, RPM / HP?

    If I were to build a 69 351W block with screw in core plugs, Oíringíd deck with copper head gaskets and head studs, a main girdle with a 3.85" 9000 Scat crank and SRP pistons, Eagle H beam rods and a 125 shot of NOS. would it survive and if so how many seasons?

  • #2
    I'm using the same crank with no problems for 3 years.Motor is around 550hp and another 75hp with nitrous.I spin it up to 7500rpm's with no problem at all.
    1967 Shelby GT500 Eleanor, 5.4 liter Supercharged Saleen ....SOLD. Gone in 6 years.
    2001 F350 crew cab
    1997 Scarab Super Competition Series offshore boat,blown

    Comment


    • #3
      I'm using the same crank going on 5 years now and bang the 8000 chip during every burnout and shift at 7500-7800RPMs depending on tune and conditions. Cast KB hyper pistons and CAT H-beam rods (one of the ONLY good parts CAT makes) in a stock non cement filled block. Screw in core plugs not necessary and just using main studs and head studs with stock replacement $12 head gaskets. Not sure on HP but at 3320#s with 1/2 tank and 18PSI in the slicks and 45PSI in the front tires it ran a 9.81 at 136 on a 1.32 6o' and a 6.30 at 109 in the 1/8 mile. Cheap $350 custom 4500 stall converter for nitrous that actually flashes at 6000 without nitrous. I figure around 650-700hp or there abouts naturally aspirated. I have not used nitrous on this engine yet though I did gap the top rings to .036" incase I wanted to try but the fact that the hypereutectic pistons are already being buzzed at high piston speeds has kept me from spraying it. I will probably spray it next year with a 100-150hp shot to see what it does. The Scat 9000 cranks can take a lot of abuse and probably more than the block can take. Be careful not to detonate much if any and the block will live otherwise the caps will walk bad if you're not careful and the only way to stop cap walk other than by stopping detonation is by using 4 bolt main caps. The screw in side plugs are good to help prevent block flex but must be done before the bore and T-plate hone since the exterior will distort slightly from the interference fit when they are tightened. They are not necessary though. I have run 10.40s with a mild 351w assembly shifted at 7800rpm using KB pistons N/A and 9.50 at 143 shifting at 7500rpm on the nitrous with the same combo using a stock block and 175hp shot from a Big Shot plate which has great even nitrous/fuel distribution and no signs of capwalk. I have used a cheater and a powershot 250+150 at the same time with a solid flat tappet cam and stock ported 351W heads after my solid roller sheared the pin and the Windsor Sr heads got hurt and went from 12.20s (using the stock heads) to 10.50s without any issues shifting at 7200rpm either also on KB cast pistons. The cast pistons are why I didn't use much nitrous. I will tear down my current 392 this winter to freshen it up and possibly put in some light weight forged pistons so I can use a healthy dose of nitrous.

      N/A a basically stock with correct machine work and no guirdle, aftermarket 4 bolt main caps, or cement can take 700-750HP at or below 8000RPM if tuned right to prevent detonation which causes/magnifies cap walk(cap bouncing off it's seat from downward pressure spikes causing metal transfer between the cap and block). Nitrous is more touchy and has higher pressure spikes so 7500RPMs and 750-800hp for SHORT periods should be OK IF everything is right. Cement does stabalize the walls and a guirdle may or may not help stabalize the caps some but it will NOT prevent or stop cap walk. Your crank will handle what you can throw at it and the SRP pistons too. I run .0025" mian bearing clearances and .0025" rod bearing clearances with 3/4 groove main bearings and run 10W30 dino juice in the hot hot summer and 5W20 in the spring/fall. Tighter bearing clearances allow better oil control and a thinner oil to be used. A double plus in my book. Don't use the HP bearings for they are too hard and made for Nitrided hardened cranks not soft journal surface cast cranks. .008" endplay and 28oz balance is fine up to 7800RPMs with that crank. Any higher than 7800 using the 2.31 journal 3.85 Scat crank and you'll want "0" balance for longevity. Slightcylinder wall notching will be required with the 2.31 journals and H-beam rod bolt (very minor) and some oil pump to counterweight clearancing too (also minor).
      Kent
      Member #1109
      Registered: Mar 2001

      68 Falcon sw 351W/C4
      68 Falcon sw 200-6/C4
      65 Fairlane 500 sw 289/C4
      78 Fairmont sw 302/C4
      76 Pinto sw 392/C4

      Pinto Wagon: 392W, cast crank, stock 72 block, 14.5:1, iron Pro Topline 215s ported to 237cc, 52.5 chambers, Super Victor, KB hypers, Isky street solid roller (290/300, 256/266, 108/108, .650"), 1050 Dom, 1 7/8 headers, 3.5 collectors/H-pipe/mufflers, C4 w/9.5" 6k stall, 4.30, 28x10.5 MT ET Drags, 3150#s, 6.30 @ 114, 9.81 @ 137 n/a.

      Comment


      • #4
        I the case of Kent's Pinto wagon, one picture is indeed worth a thousand words.
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        Alex Denysenko
        Co-Administrator

        NHRA/IHRA/NMCA member and licensed Superstock driver
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        First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
        First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
        5 time IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
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        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the reply. This is a block that I've had for a long time and ran in the past in the 68 Mustang, before I bought the MotorSport block that's in the car now. Everything I've listed I already have sitting around, except the pistons which I still need to buy.

          The block is all ready to go. I also have 3 different sets of copper head gasket as well. I installed the screw in core plugs before any machine work was done to the block. Iíve been doing this for years on all the Ford blocks Iíve built.

          Also, Iíve had great luck with oíringing the block and using copper head gaskets. I tried the wireloc head gaskets before and found they were no better then regular head gaskets. I know things have changes since then and there are better head gaskets out now that wasnít an option then. But, this block is already setup this way and itís worked without any problems so far, including the MotorSport block.

          Eventually, Iím gong to pull the MotorSport block out of the 68 and make some changes. Since I have the 1969 block collecting dust I was going to use it while I get the good block ready. That or sell the MotorSport 351N 2 bolt block and buy a World Products Man-O-War block, in order to get the cubes Iím looking for.

          What I really would like to do is build a 14+:1 World Productís 9.2Ē block, around the 430 cid range, with Blue Thunder, MotorSport or CHI cylinder heads and a forged crank. Most likely the Blue Thunderís. I would prefer building a 9.5Ē block, because of the better rod ratio, but there isnít a big intake manifold selection right now for that setup with the canted valve heads. So the 69 block build up is kind of a temporary setup. Although, I would like to sell it after I get the other engine setup in the car.

          Iíve seen signs of cap walk with the 69 block, but I havenít had the new engine apart yet and donít know if itís an issue just yet, on the other hand, there are not a whole lot of runs on it either. The 69 block had just about every run on the bottle and took out quite a few head gaskets before I switched to the copper head gaskets. Yeah, I ran it lean a few times.

          The MotorSport engine is a 4.00 X 3.50 W with a cam thatís way too small. Not enough piston to valve clearance. I was in too much of a hurry building it at the time, big mistake on my part, and it was the second time ordering a set of pistons that didnít have the proper valve clearance as I originally requested, bastages, both JE & Ross. So I just ended up using a smaller camshaft instead of properly fixing the problem and cutting the piston. The car isnít running the number I was hoping for, 10.90ís on the engine and 10.06 with a 125 shot. Although, Iíve only got a couple runs on the bottle with this setup. Still, NOT enough cam.

          I have Victor Jr. cylinder heads that should flow around 300 or so intake and a little over 200 on the exhaust after porting and a Victor Jr. intake with an 850 Holley. Iím sure I could hog out the heads some more once I tear it down and gain some more flow there. However, I would rather run the Blue Thunder heads with a big bore engine.

          Comment


          • #6
            You should be totally fine either way you go either with the Motorsport Sportsman block which is quite a bit beefier than the regular 351 block except for the 2 bolt caps but that is a worthwhile upgrade for the Sportsman block. About $100 for some cheap splayed or straight 4 bolt caps and $200-$300 in machine work and it'll be a 1200hp capable block but the stock 69 block you have will be fine with what you plan on with the combo you mentioned. Just don't detonate too hard or run too lean or fat(over rich will detonate badly too but will cover up the pepper and aluminum speckles on the plugs with soot so you are unaware unless it's bad enough to actually hear). You'll make good power with those Vr Jr heads and the bottle but it should be just fine. That'll keep you happy till your monster is built
            Get a cam with about 10 degrees more at .050 than you have now and go with a 2-3 degree wider lobe seperation and the same lift and you should have the same piston to valve clearance than you have now. If you have for example a 250/260 at .050 cam on a 108LSA and a 108 ICL then going to a 260/270 at .050 cam on a 110-111 LSA and 1100-111 ICL should maintain enough clearance and giving the needed extra duration plus it'll really like the bottle yet also run stronger off the bottle (unless the converter is too tight N/A).
            Kent
            Member #1109
            Registered: Mar 2001

            68 Falcon sw 351W/C4
            68 Falcon sw 200-6/C4
            65 Fairlane 500 sw 289/C4
            78 Fairmont sw 302/C4
            76 Pinto sw 392/C4

            Pinto Wagon: 392W, cast crank, stock 72 block, 14.5:1, iron Pro Topline 215s ported to 237cc, 52.5 chambers, Super Victor, KB hypers, Isky street solid roller (290/300, 256/266, 108/108, .650"), 1050 Dom, 1 7/8 headers, 3.5 collectors/H-pipe/mufflers, C4 w/9.5" 6k stall, 4.30, 28x10.5 MT ET Drags, 3150#s, 6.30 @ 114, 9.81 @ 137 n/a.

            Comment


            • #7
              89 Coupe, what year is your block?

              Would this be a good idea or not for the 69 W block or a better set for the MotorSport block?

              http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/MAIN-...QQcmdZViewItem

              It's been recommend that it would be a good idea to sell my 2 bolt MotorSport block, in the $1,000.00k range, if thatís possible, and buy a World Products block. It is a standard bore block. I've got about $1,600.00 in it including machine work and I think it sells today for about $1,400.00 without machine work. That max recommended bore is 4.030" from Ford. I had it sonic checked as well, let me know if you would like to see the actual numbers. I think it was between .130Ē & 260Ē or so max, Iíll need to double check that to be sure.

              However, should I keep it and pay the money to convert it to a 4 bolt block and not worry about the extra cubes? Although, that kind of bugs me losing that many inches, I guess it's kind of a money issue.

              Comment


              • #8
                Man that is a tough call... If possible I would go fo the World Products block which can be taken out to 4.18"+ bore size and have a super nice strong foundation for anything you want to do starting out with a minimum 4.125 or preferred 4.15" bore with enough meat left for future boring. If you can get that block without selling your Sportsman Block I would keep the Sportsman and 4 bolt it with those 4 bolt CAT caps you found. The Sportsman block is a lot more beefy than the '69 block in the bulheads and even in the webbing where the caps are. I like the idea of you having the 392 Sportsman short block as a complete spare short block once your large 425+World Product stroker is built and you may even have something else to drop it in at that point. The '69 block will work well with those 4 bolt caps (I have a set unused sitting on my shelf for over 5 years) with the combo you want to build currently but the Sportsman block is a much nicer block (I assume you have already compared the '69 to the Sportsman side by side). For the $75 w/shipping 4 bolt caps and $200-$350 in machine work you will have a strong assembly. Installing the 4 bolt caps on 69 blocks and Sportsan blocks are easy and don't require much work unlike other 4 bolt caps made for the thin web block that are not machined across the web from cap to the pan rail which require extra machining to the block to create a secondary register step in the block for each cap. These CAT caps use the current register steps and only require drilling and tapping the outer holes, line bore, and line hone. The caps will greatly reduce cap walk for a cheap price. There are very few CAT products that are any good but these are worth getting and will get the job done. They are not machined super trick nor do they have the fancy shiny like high dollar billet steel look. They are fully machined and black oxide.

                If it came down to it and you needed the money, I would opt to sell the Sportsman block to finance the World Products block and never worry about making too much power again while using the 69 block for the 392 you currently want to build. If you can swing it, I would sell the 69 block and 4 bolt the Sportsman block for the 392 and use more nitrous or just run more RPMs and nitrous than you planned with the 392 and not worry, build the 425" Wolrd block as planned and keep the 392 Sportman shortblock as a spare. The H-beam rods is the other item I like from CAT as they are around $250-$300 per set and are very well made. A set of ARP 2000 or L-19 rod bolts which are about $100-$150 and they are bullet proof to replace the bolts that come in the CAT rods(just a precaution). The $300-$350 to your door Scat 9000 3.85 stroke crank with 2.31 journals and any pistons you want to use (I have been running $200 KB 116 Hypereutectic pistons for spite in my current 392 of 5 years and KB hyper pistons since the early 90s in all my previous engines. They are heavy at around 650 grams and the pins around 140-150 grams but they hold up to the RPMs without any problems. I would not consider them with consistent nitrous use like 600+ N/A hp and 100+hp nitrous on top of that with a small block KB piston though I have done it much in the 90s it was again for spite to those who didn't believe they could handle power. A good light weight flat top forged piston or a smallish flat dome. For around $1000 you can have a cheap 392 assembly that can handle over 1000hp and turn 7800 safely. The $75 4 bolt caps and 200-350 in machine work and the block will handle the power too. Don't run loose rod bearing clearances for better oil control and run the FM 3/4 groove main bearings and all should be well. As long as you have over .200" wall thickness on the major thrust and .175 on the minor thrust, you can bore it out to .060 at the higher than 700-800hp levels. Block cement in it up to the water pump holes will make the cylinders much more rigid and the whole block more rigid but is unnecessary for your plans but if decided to do so it must be done and cured before the machine work is performed. The bigger the bore, the more unshrouded the valves will be and the better the airflow will be if the chambers are worked to match the bore and NOT the head gasket like many people wrongly do.

                I'm using a regular D2 block with only bore/hone .030", line honed, and decked .020" using main studs and head studs. The machine work is the most important thing to have done right. I'm assuming The Mustang weighs between 2800-3000lbs so 650hp N/A should get you close to if not in the 5s setup right off the bottle and still be mild enough to drive around. The Vr Jr intake may be too small and may choke the heads unless you're keeping the smallish cam and lower RPM plans while using the bottle. With new pistons, you'll be able to get the proper size cam and that means RPMs so the 392 will be quite hungry and the Vr Jr might hurt the power upstairs considerably. A Super Victor with a port match (not gasket match) and 1-2" open carb spacer under the 850DP with 12-13:1 will make 600+ hp easily. What does you '68 weigh?
                Last edited by 89 coupe; 12-07-2006, 09:28 AM. Reason: correction
                Kent
                Member #1109
                Registered: Mar 2001

                68 Falcon sw 351W/C4
                68 Falcon sw 200-6/C4
                65 Fairlane 500 sw 289/C4
                78 Fairmont sw 302/C4
                76 Pinto sw 392/C4

                Pinto Wagon: 392W, cast crank, stock 72 block, 14.5:1, iron Pro Topline 215s ported to 237cc, 52.5 chambers, Super Victor, KB hypers, Isky street solid roller (290/300, 256/266, 108/108, .650"), 1050 Dom, 1 7/8 headers, 3.5 collectors/H-pipe/mufflers, C4 w/9.5" 6k stall, 4.30, 28x10.5 MT ET Drags, 3150#s, 6.30 @ 114, 9.81 @ 137 n/a.

                Comment


                • #9
                  The H-beam rods is the other item I like from CAT as they are around $250-$300 per set and are very well made.
                  Where is the best place to buy them?

                  Don't run loose rod bearing clearances for better oil control and run the FM 3/4 groove main bearings and all should be well.
                  Iíve been using King Bearing for years and run 0.0027 on both rods & mains. After inspecting several engines Iíve built this way, with substantial time on them, I donít think I could use anything other then King Bearings.

                  What does you '68 weigh?
                  The Mustang weighs in at 3150lbs with me in it, I think. I know it weighed 3050lbs with the 302 and me. So, itís just a guess with the 351W.


                  (I assume you have already compared the '69 to the Sportsman side by side.)
                  No need to. The blocks could be in different states and you could tell the differences between the two, itís really beefy in all areas. I really like the Sportsman block, just two things that bug me about it. One, is overbore capability and two is the 2 bolt caps.

                  But, the more I think about it, I might just install good set of 4 bolt caps on the Sportsman block, either way, and run a 408 cid. Itís a hard decision for me to make. I guess it depends on how much I could get out of the Sportsman block.

                  Although, I ďmightĒ get almost as much for the 69 block, with all the work Iíve got done to it, and keep the Sportsman block as the spare. Iíve got a new set of 13.5:1 JE SRP pistons that have already been fly-cut, fitted for that block and a set of stock rods that are full floating that were originally build for this engine. Iím kinda thinking out loud here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Here are CAT H-beam rods though TMD sells them as house brand. Nearly $100 cheaper than SCAT and over $100 cheaper than Eagle. Sometimes you can find then for under $250 a set and I bought several sets between $220-$240 and have run them as is except for the set I am using now which I bought a L-19 bolt upgrade since the L-19s were offered to me for an extra $60 I couldn't pass that up.

                    I don't remember if King bearings are 3/4 groove or not. I know they are good bearings as there is no doubt but for heavy loads if they are not 3/4 groove you should reconsider especially for heavy nirous usage. The groove disapears on the 3/4 groove bearings at the bottom against the caps where the heaviest load is placed therefore the most bearing surface area is present to handle those high compressive loads. The long stroke and high RPMs tend to suck the mains dry if the rods journals have too much clearance. Centrifugal force in the throws slings the oil out of the rod journals which causes a custion in the mains. If you keep the rod journals around .0025" and side clearances fairly tight at .008-.010 and use a thinner oil it will limit the amount of oil slung out of the rods reducing the severe suction that suck the mains dry at high RPMs. Also flows quicker and sooner at startup. I use to run .003/.003 rods/mains in my 7800-800RPM 351Ws uaing 20/50 oil and had .014-.018 side clearance. The mains and rods always looked great. I rarely ever changes bearings when freshening up. Then came the 392 and 408 strokers and I built a bunch for people and a couple for myself. The mains started to get pitted or flaking while the rods looked great. The mains actually would wear rather quickly and by doing what Animal Jim suggested was tightening up the rods clearances to reduce the amount of oil being pulled out from centrifugal force which puts a negative pressure in the mains instead of a positive oil pressure if the pull exceeds the oil feed pressure. I know .002 on the rods would be OK with .0025 on the mains using a 0w20 oil on a 2.1" rod journal at or near 8000rpm. You can go looser on the mains but keep the rods at .0025 or close to that to make sure you never have bearing problems with a 2.31 journal.

                    I know tough deciding on which block to do what with with. Maybe 4 bolt the 69 and sell it and 4 bolt the Sportsman block for personal use? See how much machine work costs to convert to 4 bolt mains on the center 3 mains first. It might just be cheap enough to make money doing that to the 69 and selling it. BTW, if I bought a World Products block I would go straight for the 4.25" Eagle crank with a 4.155 bore for a 460CID. They can go a minimum of 4.18+ on up to 4.20" bore. That's a honkin block! I think the BT heads could easily feed those cubes when ported good and I'm unsure how large CHI's large head is or how large it can go so I can't comment. I know the CHI 3V is much too small for the cubes.
                    Kent
                    Member #1109
                    Registered: Mar 2001

                    68 Falcon sw 351W/C4
                    68 Falcon sw 200-6/C4
                    65 Fairlane 500 sw 289/C4
                    78 Fairmont sw 302/C4
                    76 Pinto sw 392/C4

                    Pinto Wagon: 392W, cast crank, stock 72 block, 14.5:1, iron Pro Topline 215s ported to 237cc, 52.5 chambers, Super Victor, KB hypers, Isky street solid roller (290/300, 256/266, 108/108, .650"), 1050 Dom, 1 7/8 headers, 3.5 collectors/H-pipe/mufflers, C4 w/9.5" 6k stall, 4.30, 28x10.5 MT ET Drags, 3150#s, 6.30 @ 114, 9.81 @ 137 n/a.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by 89 coupe View Post
                      I don't remember if King bearings are 3/4 groove or not.
                      I just looked a set that I have here and it appears to be around .250" without measuring.

                      Originally posted by 89 coupe View Post
                      I know tough deciding on which block to do what with. Maybe 4 bolt the 69 and sell it and 4 bolt the Sportsman block for personal use? See how much machine work costs to convert to 4 bolt mains on the center 3 mains first. It might just be cheap enough to make money doing that to the 69 and selling it.
                      That sounds like a good idea. Although, I think I would keep the Sportsman block just in case something happened to the new block, although, my middle son would like to stick it in his 85 GT I’m sure, lol, which might not be a bad idea.

                      Originally posted by 89 coupe View Post

                      BTW, if I bought a World Products block I would go straight for the 4.25" Eagle crank with a 4.155 bore for a 460CID. They can go a minimum of 4.18+ on up to 4.20" bore. That's a honkin block! I think the BT heads could easily feed those cubes when ported good and I'm unsure how large CHI's large head is or how large it can go so I can't comment. I know the CHI 3V is much too small for the cubes.
                      That’s really what I’m looking for, an engine that I could detune and run for years. An engine that’s capable of mid to low nines, shift it in the 6000 rpm range, run low tens and the thing would live for years with extremely low maintenance.

                      Originally posted by 89 coupe View Post

                      The mains started to get pitted or flaking while the rods looked great.
                      That also might have depend on what year that happened to you. At one point in time, I don’t remember the year (mid to late 90’s?), but the HP bearings were having a flaking problem. It was a bad batch of bearings from the manufacture. I know of a speed shop, “Boyd” which built engines for Joe Nemechek, that was around the corner from my shop that had quite a few boxes of HP bearings with a flaking problem, which the manufacture freely admitted they had a problem. They replaced the defective bearings free of charge. Not saying that was your case, but a possibility.

                      Comment

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