Brought to you by:

Twenty Years!
.
The best source of parts, bar none!

Click here to see a list of our Supporters.
  • If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hydraulic roller 408C on the dyno - part 1

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Hydraulic roller 408C on the dyno - part 1

    I recently spent some time on the dyno at Dave McClain's shop in Cuba,
    Missouri with a friend's 408 cube Cleveland stroker. Spec's on the
    engine are:

    4.030" bore
    SCAT 4" cast crank
    6" SCAT rods with SBC pin dimensions
    dished forged pistons
    approximately 10:1 compression
    4V closed chamber heads milled/drilled for screw in studs and guideplates
    Mid-Lift 1.73:1 roller rockers
    springs with 140 lbs seat pressure 320 open (approx)
    Ford over-the-counter aluminum dual plane (Boss 351C with Holley carb
    pattern)
    Boss 351 cast aluminum valve covers with screw-in Ford rubber grommets
    and push-in K&N breather
    Hooker Competition headers, 1 3/4" diameter by 27" long primaries,
    3" diameter by 8" long collector (probably part number HOK-6920HKR)
    12 inch long collector extensions and 3" inlet/outler Magnaflow mufflers
    Mallory Unilite distributor with mechanical advance only
    Boss 351C valve covers
    Dave's dyno carb (Competition Carburetion 950HP carburetor, 4 corner
    idle, no PCV port, did not use the dyno bellmouth)
    Crane Cams grind number (custom): HR-232/352-2S-8
    Intake 232 deg duration @ 0.050" tappet lift
    294 deg duration @ 0.004" tappet lift.
    0.609" lift with 1.73:1 rocker ratio
    Exhaust 236 deg duration @ 0.050" tappet lift
    298 deg duration @ 0.004" tappet lift.
    0.621" lift with 1.73:1 rocker ratio
    108 degrees lobe separation, intake centerline 103 ATDC
    degreed in at 102.25 intake centerline with new chain
    (should lose about .5 to 1 degree once timing chain loosens up)
    Crane steel distributor gear (0.531 inch ID to match Mallory distributor)
    OEM Ford 5.0L hydraulic roller lifters and spider arrangement

    The engine is destined for Glen's Pantera and he wanted to stick with
    the Ford dual plane intake so he could retain the stock engine screen.
    Knowing the Ford intake would be a limiting factor, Dave worked on the
    poorer flowing runners to bring them closer to the better ones.
    Surprisingly, the worst runners were not the lower plane runners but
    the upper runners which "look" better. The divider was cut down and
    the plenum entry blended back to help the worst runners. Two 4 hole
    spacers and one open spacer was tried. Spacer height was limited to
    1" since that's all that will fit under the stock Pantera engine
    screen with Ford intake. The open spacer worked best but all peaked
    right around 5500 RPM.

    The heads are closed chamber 4V heads with some short side radius work,
    a good valve job and stainless valves with 30 degree back cuts on intake
    side only. Here's what they pulled on the flow bench:

    351C-4V
    lift int exh int int
    #1 #1 #2 #3
    .050 33.6 27.1 32.7 31.1
    .100 64.7 55.9 64.6 64.1
    .200 123.0 100.1 129.8 134.5
    .300 188.5 138.9 195.1 200.2
    .400 246.4 166.4 251.7 253.3
    .500 294.5 182.7 296.5 294.6
    .600 322.1 186.5 322.5 322.0
    .700 333.3 185.2 338.9 330.2

    Flowed at 10" and converted to 28", some porting (shortside radius work),
    2.19"/1.71" diameter valves, no intake manifold or exhaust pipe. Intake
    port area is 3.25 sq. in. Exhaust is 3.14 sq. in. Dave's got the data
    for the rest of the ports but this all I could pull off the screen dumps.
    Dave said the shortside radius was everything on the 4V heads. He also
    opined the 2V short side was worse and would likely respond to similar
    modifications.

    Flow data for head with dual plane Ford intake and 780 Holley carb body:

    351C-4V
    lift int int int int int
    port port port port port
    #1 #2 #3 #4 #5
    .200 124.0 127.4 133.0 128.9 126.4
    .400 217.9 228.8 228.6 231.7 228.2
    .600 258.9 270.5 271.7 282.4 271.9
    .800 274.4 ----- 285.3 279.7 271.8

    Running through the mufflers, on Mobil 93 octane premium, the best pulls
    came with 28 degrees timing, the reworked Ford aluminum intake with a 1
    inch open spacer. Corrected numbers are 468 horsepower at 5500rpm and
    486lbs/ft at 4500. It was a cool day and the air density ratio was very
    good, 98.17% for a 1.0238 correction factor. Air temp was 56 Degrees F,
    humidity 36% and abs baro 29.26 in Hg. Very good conditions for the
    1100ft altitude. Dave was an EMC contestant and said his dyno is known
    to be about 4% conservative when compared to other setups. Our dyno pulls
    were from 3000 to 6000 RPM and the engine makes 440 or more lbs/ft from
    3100 to about 5600rpm. After that, the engine drops off. The intake
    and the OEM Ford hydraulic roller lifters are the possible limiting factors
    in this build so we plan to try the FRPP/Crane link bar lifters and a Holley
    Strip Dominator intake manifold to see if wee can pull another 500 RPM or
    so. Hoping to make 500 HP through the mufflers. Once we've satisfied our
    curiosity, we'll try a 750DP and GTS Pantera headers and mufflers. Kirk
    Evans did some header testing a while back and found the GTS headers were
    pretty decent (compared to the other Pantera headers tested) but the
    mufflers were pretty bad. We'll run the tests with and without mufflers.
    Also, Dave thinks we'll only lose about 10 HP with the 750DP versus the
    dyno carb. Interestingly, he didn't bother to jet the dyno carb on the
    dyno, claiming his previous experience with that carb was that jetting only
    made a slight difference in power.

    We also tested a Blue Thunder high rise intake but it actually made less
    power than the modified Ford intake. The Blue Thunder made 437 horsepower
    and 463 ft-lbs torque, at 5500 and 3900rpm respectively. Adding a 1" open
    spacer to the Blue Thunder helped the torque about 6 HP but horsepower
    stayed the same. It would be interesting to see what Dave could do with
    the Blue Thunder but we're going to try a Holley Strip Dominator single
    plane, instead. The heads alone flow 322 CFM at 0.600" lift but when you
    add the ported dual plane intake, spacer, and carb body the flow drops
    into 270 to 280 CFM range. Dave used a neat trick for the manifold testing.
    He used hardware store weather stripping instead of RTV or cork gaskets.
    Cheap, easy and lasts long enough for the dyno pulls.

    Earlier I had taken some A/B measurements on several intakes:

    A B
    Holley Strip Dominator 4 5/16 5 3/8
    Blue Thunder 4 7/16 5 3/8
    Ford aluminum dual plane 3 1/4 4 3/8
    Weiand Xcelerator 2V 4 3/16 5 1/8

    I know for a fact the Weiand Xcelerator 2V will clear the stock Pantera
    screen with a 2 1/4" tall 14" diameter K&N element but there isn't a lot
    of room beyond that. A slightly smaller diameter air cleaner (13") should
    clear the decklid and allow a bit more space. At worst, Glen will have to
    either mill the spacer or the intake 1/4" or try a different style air
    cleaner. If he's so inclined, a taller engine screen (or spacers under
    the stock screen) can be installed.

    Dave mentioned the SCAT cast crank had a Cleveland snout and did not
    require the Ford Motorsport snout spacer. If you call SCAT and ask,
    they'll tell you the snout spacer is needed. Note that the SCAT forged
    cranks may still need the snout spacer. My 4340 forged steel SCAT crank
    did need it but that crank was made a year or so ago. I don't know if
    they have separate FMS and Cleveland crank part numbers now or not for
    the forged cranks. 6" Scat I beam rod with SBC pin dimensions were used
    and the rods and pistons were light enough quite a bit of material had
    to be removed from the counterweights on the SCAT 4 inch stroke cranks
    to use the 28.2oz balance factor. It would take some heavy metal to
    make it internally balanced. Everything ends up pretty light:

    Piston 390 grams(with ring support)
    Locks 4 grams
    Rings 41 grams
    Pin 117 grams
    Rod Big End 437
    Rod Small End 173
    Bearing 37
    Oil 3
    Total: 1676 gram bob weight for a 50% balance factor.

    On the initial fire up, we heard some noise. I suspected a roller
    rocker was hitting the Boss valve cover baffle since I've had that
    happen before. However, Dave said he had checked that and the baffle
    had been clearanced. When we removed the valve cover, there were no
    marks on the rockers so that wasn't the source. Also, the sound appeared
    to be coming from multiple locations. After wondering if it was just
    start up slap from the cold forged pistons, Dave bumped the engine over
    with the starter while I watched for valve train interference and
    noticed that some of pushrods were just brushing the guide plates.
    Dave made the guide plate slots deeper and that took care of the
    noise. Glen thought catching was worth the dyno cost. It's one of
    those things easy to catch on the dyno (and hard to verify during mock
    since the lifters aren't pumped up) but would be a pain to catch and
    fix in the car. Required intake and exhaust pushrods are different
    lengths, BTW. That's likely due to the different intake and exhaust
    lobes.

  • #2
    part two

    Looks like the forum software limits post length so I had to cut this up into two posts:

    I was surprised the Hooker Competition headers were only 1 3/4" primaries.
    4V headers tend to be 1 7/8" since that covers the exhaust port better.
    The Hooker Super Comps are 2" but that's too large for this engine.
    Some 351C headers make a sharp down turn right at the flange to clear
    the narrow Mustang shock towers but the Hookers came out a few inches
    before turning down. Pantera headers come straight out but the primaries
    are very short and the collectors very short and small in diameter (2 1/4"
    outlet). Glen is buying a set of GTS Pantera headers which have 2"
    primaries feeding into a tri-y type collector of 2 1/4" diamter outlet.
    It will be interesting to see how big a hit we take on those relative to
    the Hooker headers.

    A friend has run both the OEM Ford lifters and the Ford Motorsport
    M-6500-S58 retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters (made by Crane and
    sold by them under part number 36532-16 but the FMS part number is
    $30 cheaper through Summit Racing) and verified the lifters are
    dimensionally identical. The pushrod cup is in the same location and
    the plunger travel is the same so we can use the same pushrods. Marc
    mentioned they set the pre-load a full turn, rather than the 1/2 turn
    we were using. The full turn includes the setting of the locks (from
    zero lash to locked in place). Marc also mentioned that is what Crane
    recommends.

    Since Glen is going to use the left-over stock parts to build a back-up
    engine, he's going to buy a set of the Ford/Crane link bar lifters and
    we can swap the OEM lifters to the back-up engine. With the Strip
    Dominator and the Crane lifters, we should see if the stock lifters
    are a limiting factor.

    I've got all the flow data for the heads and intake so I'll run this
    through Dynomation when I can spare the time and see how well it predicts
    the trends.

    Dan Jones

    Comment


    • #3
      In the 351W, the stock roller lifters require a very small base circle cam, that people 'in the know' seem to dislike greatly. It seems, 100% of the folks out there want to see the standard base circle cam, along with the Crane retro-fit lifters.

      I realize this is a 351C... Are they set up like the 351W? Do you have a small or standard base circle cam in that engine?

      The Strip Dominator should be a good upgrade.

      Good Luck!
      http://webpages.charter.net/hotrods/n2oMike.jpg

      Mike Burch
      1966 Mustang, Toploader 4-speed
      Pump Gas Flat Tappet 302, 10.134 @ 134.71
      http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

      Comment


      • #4
        Mike, I believe the cam in his engine will be a small base circle cam if they are using the OEM style lifters. The hyd roller cam that Mark @ MME ground for me is still a smaller base circle cam, but its a little bigger than the stock sized small base circle cam. The oiling holes on the lifters are very close to coming out of the lifters bores, but stay in there just enough.

        Dan, did I read that right that the Crane/FMS link type hyd roller lifters will use the same pushrod as the OEM hyd roller lifter? If thats the case, I might have to contact Sherman lifters and see if the guts from my Sherman modified OEM hyd roller lifters will fit in a set of the Crane/FMS ones.

        Thanks for the great info, its very helpful.
        1994 Lightning "Pro Street"
        *Old Combo* 408c CHI 3V 225cc Heads, 3v Intake, Dave Storlien solid roller, Rollerized c6, UCC 6,000 rpm converter, Merkl Racing 'brake, AJE k-member front suspension, and Outlaw 4 link with Koni da coilovers.
        715hp and 604 ft lbs @ the flywheel on pump gas.
        6.50@106.63 1/8th
        10.38@126.9 1/4
        1994 Lightning 408c 3v

        Comment


        • #5
          > I realize this is a 351C... Are they set up like the 351W? Do you
          > have a small or standard base circle cam in that engine?

          It's a Crane steel core cam. The one I ordered for my engine was
          standard base circle but I used the link bar lifters. This one
          may be a reduced base circle cam but I'm not sure. I'll ask.
          It's currently installed with an OEM type spider holding the Ford
          lifters and dog bones. Plans are to test the Crane link bars.

          > The Strip Dominator should be a good upgrade.

          I hope so. I was really surprised the Blue Thunder didn't do
          better.

          > Dan, did I read that right that the Crane/FMS link type hyd roller
          > lifters will use the same pushrod as the OEM hyd roller lifter?

          Yes. My buddy Marc has run both and siad they are dimensionally
          identical. He's turning 8800 RPM with a hydraulic roller with
          all the tricks (titanium valves, stout springs, AFM high rev lobes,
          etc.).

          Dan Jones

          Comment


          • #6
            I'll bet the strip dominator will actually hurt power on that combo. That intake really likes to get spun up, and I think it's because of the large plenum and the runner lengths.

            But thats just my opinion.
            Rob Hetzler
            M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
            Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

            My Photo Page

            Comment


            • #7
              Hopefully, the extra cubes will bring the Strip Dominator right into line, but KV could be right. You'll just have to test it.

              As far as the link-bar lifters being better... The camshaft people over on HC50 really HATE those camshafts with severely reduced base circles. (cut down enought to use the stock lifters) They are very adament about using a stock base circle camshaft and the link-bar lifters. Of course, I'm just being a 'parrot' here and relaying information. I have no direct experience with HR cams. The guys that use these things a lot, do NOT like the reduced base circle cams. You may want to research it a bit more.

              That being said, it will be interesting to see if the link-bar lifters alone, will produce much of a gain.

              I'm surprised the larger dual plane intake didn't do better. Go Figure.

              Good Luck!
              http://webpages.charter.net/hotrods/n2oMike.jpg

              Mike Burch
              1966 Mustang, Toploader 4-speed
              Pump Gas Flat Tappet 302, 10.134 @ 134.71
              http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by n2omike View Post
                Hopefully, the extra cubes will bring the Strip Dominator right into line, but KV could be right. You'll just have to test it.

                I know Ben took his torker off his 408C and stuck a strip dominator on it, and it slowed down. But that was going from a single plane to a single plane, not from a dual plane to a single plane. It will be interesting to see what it does.

                I also know that a fella from the network54 335 forum has my strip dominator and is going to compare it to a torker on a pretty stout stock rod motor on Crafts dyno sometime this month.
                Rob Hetzler
                M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                My Photo Page

                Comment


                • #9
                  Actually I did that swap on a 351C motor. I haven't tried the Torker on the 408C. But yeah, the car slowed down a lot on the track when I put the Strip Dom on the 351C. That motor was only reved to 6500rpm and I think the Dom needs more to get in it's sweet spot. My 408C seems to like the Dom, but I rev it to 7000rpm.
                  Ben
                  '93 & '97 champion of Central Indiana Dirt Racing Asc.
                  C.I.D.R.A.
                  __________________________________
                  '79 Fairmont 408C/C4 10.50 @ 127
                  '70 Mach I 351C 4V toploader
                  '07 Mustang GT

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Opps, I thought you did that on your 408.
                    Rob Hetzler
                    M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                    Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                    My Photo Page

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I might try the Torker this summer to see what she does. I really would like some better 60' times and that may be the ticket. My best is 1.44 but I think it should do better.
                      Ben
                      '93 & '97 champion of Central Indiana Dirt Racing Asc.
                      C.I.D.R.A.
                      __________________________________
                      '79 Fairmont 408C/C4 10.50 @ 127
                      '70 Mach I 351C 4V toploader
                      '07 Mustang GT

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        > I'll bet the strip dominator will actually hurt power on that combo.
                        > That intake really likes to get spun up, and I think it's because
                        > of the large plenum and the runner lengths.

                        As far as piston speed goes, 6000 RPM with a 4" stroke is the same
                        as 6857 RPM with a 3.5" stroke so there's a chance it'll respond.

                        > You'll just have to test it.

                        Yup. I think the combo needs more cam duration but it should be
                        fine for how Glen intends to use it.

                        > The guys that use these things a lot, do NOT like the reduced base
                        > circle cams. You may want to research it a bit more.

                        I've heard the same but didn't give it a thought on this build.
                        I thought Dave was going to use the link bar lifters to begin
                        with and use the standard Crane steel core.

                        > That being said, it will be interesting to see if the link-bar
                        > lifters alone, will produce much of a gain.

                        Yes.

                        > I'm surprised the larger dual plane intake didn't do better.

                        I'd like to see what it would do, given equal work on the flow bench.

                        > But that was going from a single plane to a single plane, not from a
                        > dual plane to a single plane. It will be interesting to see what it
                        > does.

                        I've got a Torker here as well. Maybe I should take it along for a test.

                        > I also know that a fella from the network54 335 forum has my strip
                        > dominator and is going to compare it to a torker on a pretty stout
                        > stock rod motor on Crafts dyno sometime this month.

                        FWIW, one of the Pantera guys did a bunch of road and drag strip intake
                        testing with his Pantera. The engine consisted of a single pattern
                        Erson hydraulic flat tappet cam (232 deg duration @ 0.050", 108 LSA,
                        0.545" lift), Rhoads lifters, 4V quench heads, flat top pistons, 735
                        Holley, coatings, C&A rings, MSD ignition, wrapped headers, and MPG
                        Stinger exhaust port stuffers. Intakes tested included an Edelbrock
                        Torker, Weiand Xcelerator 4V, Offy Port-o-Sonic 4V, Holley Strip Dominator,
                        along with a couple dual planes. Tim spent a lot of time optimizing the
                        carb for each intake. The Holley Strip Dominator was 4 tenths quicker
                        in the 1/4 mile than the Torker and had, by far, the best driveability
                        (smooth with no flat spots) of the single planes. He said it rivaled
                        the dual planes down low, as far as driveability was concerned, and by
                        3000 RPM was pulling away. Unfortunately, he didn't have access to a
                        Blue Thunder high rise dual plane for those tests. He could never get
                        the Torker to smooth out at lower RPM, despite a lot of tuning time.
                        Note that the single planes tend to be more sensitive to carb tuning
                        due to the weaker metering signal. Back in the day, Pro Stock Engineering
                        offered a modified Torker with a center plenum divider. Here's what
                        they claimed:

                        "This manifold has been extensively flow tested and is a PSE exclusive.
                        A special plenum divider provides greatly increased low end and mid
                        range torque without sacrificing top end horsepower."

                        Vizard has done tests with a SBC Weiand Xcelerator intake and found
                        it greatly responds to a plenum divider and I beleive Weiand actually
                        makes a carb spacer with divider for that intake now.

                        Jim Sams borrowed my Strip Dominator for a while and found it worked
                        really well down low when equipped with a Predator variable venturi
                        carb. It would be interesting to see how it responds to different
                        booster types ((annular vs. downleg) in a conventional Holley.

                        Dan Jones

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Strip dommy vs. Torker

                          Originally posted by kid vishus View Post
                          I also know that a fella from the network54 335 forum has my strip dominator and is going to compare it to a torker on a pretty stout stock rod motor on Crafts dyno sometime this month.
                          Still having fitment problems with my intake so I backed up and ordered some custom Cometic gaskets (.064") to help with the bolt hole alignment.

                          Can't wait to compare and post this....

                          Comment

                          Working...
                          X