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501" BBF - or - 427" SBF?

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  • #16
    Thanks again for your thoughtful replies, KV!

    I would also guess they are the 205 TW heads, but I should confirm. When I spoke with the builder last night, he said he'd look up the paperwork to confirm the valve diameters and valve springs (for cam choice purposes).

    I too, would lean toward the solid roller over the hydraulic roller. I ran a solid tappet cam in my previous SBF & I liked it...checking the lash now and then wasn't a big deal for me.

    I know the Edelbrock Super Victor Jr (351W) is a more popular intake, but I'd like to read and/or hear about any comparisons of it against the TW intake ( #TFS-52400114, TrickFlow, [R-Series, carb'd] intake).

    KV points to an 850 over a 950 (on a 408W),,,,,, duly noted. KV, isn't KK's 408W backed by a automatic? Any reason to think that a stick car would be happier with something else?

    Yep,,,, as much as I don't like the idea of giving up on the 501", (actually, I don't like to quit on ANYTHING once I pull the trigger & get started) and I do believe it would be a KILLER RUSH to pull the shifter behind that bad boy, I also can't help but think it is probably a SMARTER move for me at this point in my life to stop, sell off the parts gathered, and chase this 427 deal - as I know it would put the car (and me) back at the track much quicker than to continue down the longer road to completion of the 501 BB and related chassis requirements.

    For sure, KV, cost is a major issue with me too. I am a realist and know at least for me, this sport is typically not a money maker - and I knew that going in. But because my BB parts are still in boxes, I am nervously-presuming I would be able to recoup most of my costs. In fact, before this Sunday night, I will assemble a BB parts list, my costs, and a selling cost. So sure, I MUST be able to recoup most of my BB costs before I start moving down a different "hot rod path".......

    Anyone have any opinions/concerns on the 10.6 or 11:1 compression ratio being kinda low? I'm thinking if cam'd, intake & carb'd correctly, the CR would not be a issue.....

    Ryan
    Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

    Comment


    • #17
      11-1 compression wouldnt bother me a bit. I would think if the motor happened to have a cast steel crank, it might be a little easier on it anyways.

      I dont know off the top of my head anyone that runs the TF intake. Doesnt mean it's bad, just means if someone around here is running one I dont know about it.

      I have zero experience with stick shift cars, so I dont know if they require anything different on top of the intake than an automatic car does. I do know I am leaning towards getting a prepped carb for KK's car, something that flows 1000 cfm or so.
      Rob Hetzler
      M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
      Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

      My Photo Page

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by kid vishus View Post
        Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, there is a guy I race with here, he has a 421 inch Windsor with a set of CNC ported Twisted Wedge heads on it, in a tubbed Fox body mustang, it runs low 5.60s in good air with a glide behind it. Does HUGE wheelstands when it leaves too.
        DANG! .... Low 5.60s is sub 9s in the 1/4!!
        Ok, sure he is likely running a higher CR than this 427w, and likely gets spun REAL tight, is lighter than my '69, runs a bigger rear shoe and an auto trans.......but that is still serious humpin' in my book!

        My wish/hope is to get to sub 10.5s (in 1/4) with my stick....be it with the 501" or with this new idea of the 427w. (I wonder if I'll ever need to buy wheelie bars.....)

        Ryan
        Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

        Comment


        • #19
          That fox body car is all steel except for maybe the hood and rear deck lid. KK's brother freshened the motor for them one year, but that was several years ago. That's how I know it has TF Twisted Wedge heads on it and that it's a 421.
          Rob Hetzler
          M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
          Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

          My Photo Page

          Comment


          • #20
            I guess another benefit of the lower compression ratio is it would allow you to run pump gas. Saves a bit of coin, especially if you run a lot.
            1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
            347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
            363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

            2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
            244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


            Current CI Count - 103

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post
              My wish/hope is to get to sub 10.5s (in 1/4) with my stick....be it with the 501" or with this new idea of the 427w. (I wonder if I'll ever need to buy wheelie bars.....)

              Ryan
              How heavy is your car?
              1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
              347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
              363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

              2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
              244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


              Current CI Count - 103

              Comment


              • #22
                Either motor can get you under 10.5 as long as the car is not a heavy barge of 3500lbs or more.

                I had my 3550lb 11:1 427w 4 speed Jerico street/strip Mustang running 10.5's with stock AFR 205 heads, stock Vic Jr, big Bullet SR cam, 1 3/4" headers, 950HP carb, 93 octane gas and a 4.33 rear. It was putting out over 550hp. An 850 carb would have worked better at the track but the 950hp was my "ole reliable" with decent street manners so I never went bigger. In hind site I wish I would have tried one. I launched it at 5800 and shifted at 7K.

                I first tried the 950hp on my newer Dart 434w 4 speed Bullet with bigger race heads/ported Vic Jr/bigger cam and 1 7/8" headers. It worked well but once I installed a 4150 based carb with over 1000cfm it woke it up. Gained 3 tenths in the quarter in the summer heat with just the carb change. Once I got it sorted out it goes 9's in decent weather. Approximately 700hp on 93 octane pump gas with 11.2 compression. Launch at 5700 and I shift it at 7500.

                After notching the shock towers its easy to work on the Windsor, hot or cold. (My car has the narrower 68' mustang shock tower installed, plus I notched them too for more clearance.)

                I have a friend who built a Lima 521 following a Kaase magazine article. Used Kaase aluminum heads (P51?), the same intake and the same SR cam as the mag. Big Dominator car. On the dyno his put out 756hp@6500 with gobs of torque. That's the good part. The bad part was fitting it in 67' Mustang with everything he desired. He has a stick car and found that the available headers do not take them into account. No way to fit a z-bar nor a cable. He ended up going hydraulic with an external slave (something he had made up.) Using a double disc clutch to hold the power. I fear that the Jerico won't have much of a chance once it gets it to the track (he hasn't gotten it there yet.) He did build a decent braced 9" to handle the power but the tranny will be the weakest link. I doubt he'll ever get the car to hook off the line with all that power going through leaf springs and Caltracs like I can do.

                He also wanted to use a front motor plate and an electric water pump. He was able to fit a radiator but couldn't get any adequate type of fan system to fit in the space between the pump and the radiator. A blow through won't work either (although his is a street car.) He's still working on that and is considering using a remote electric water pump. Its not a fun car to work on even with its notched shock towers.

                Dennis

                65' STANG Street/Strip

                434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

                Comment


                • #23
                  Poppy65,
                  The last time I weighed the car, it scaled out at 3,330 lbs (with me). That was with the iron-headed 302, with an aluminum intake and water pump. It could still loose some weight, as it is still sporting the heavy OEM front bucket seats (!) however, back seat and carpeting was out. I would like to add a 6 or 8 point roll bar though....and I would like to upgrade to Calvert's rear mono-leafs and dump the 5-leave rear springs.....I've also got some rollerized front A-arms and radius rods to switch out.....and I'd like to weld in the additional BB lower front shock tower bracing.....and loose the NOS OEM fuel tank for a smaller fuel cell.... and, and,,,,, Bottomline - I know there is some weight that could come out, and some that I want to add in yet.

                  Dennis112,
                  Good info on your 427w and 434w combinations. Thanks for sharing!
                  Isn't a Jerico lighter than a Top Loader?

                  I had thought I would only notch the shock towers for the BB, but I like the idea of doing the notching anyway for a 351w-based engine too, but why not make it easier to get around under there?

                  Many of the snags mentioned in your story of your friend with the 521 is similar to the fears I have had with the 501 in my '69.....compatible engine mounts with clutch linkage with decent headers....and then trying to get the slicks to hook up (my car is currently un-tubbed)..... and then, I too, would end up not ever finishing it....

                  Ryan


                  Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Going to be hard to get that big block to hook with small tires. I see mini tubs in your future at least, maybe a full back half.....
                    ----1999 F150 XLT Lariat Super Cab 4X4 5.4----
                    -----1947 Lincoln Zephyr Coupe 5.0-----
                    -----2005 Expedition Eddie Bauer 5.4----
                    " Sometimes you fix the car, sometimes the car fixes you" Steve L.

                    "Do not let anyone tell you it cannot be done. No challenge can match the heart and fight and spirit of America". President Donald J. Trump

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by ford84stepside View Post
                      Going to be hard to get that big block to hook with small tires. I see mini tubs in your future at least, maybe a full back half.....
                      ......maybe another reason to back out & away from the BB project and move toward the 427w mill......... ?

                      Ryan
                      Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post
                        Poppy65,

                        Dennis112,
                        Good info on your 427w and 434w combinations. Thanks for sharing!
                        Isn't a Jerico lighter than a Top Loader?

                        I had thought I would only notch the shock towers for the BB, but I like the idea of doing the notching anyway for a 351w-based engine too, but why not make it easier to get around under there?

                        Many of the snags mentioned in your story of your friend with the 521 is similar to the fears I have had with the 501 in my '69.....compatible engine mounts with clutch linkage with decent headers....and then trying to get the slicks to hook up (my car is currently un-tubbed)..... and then, I too, would end up not ever finishing it....

                        Ryan

                        it
                        Ryan,

                        Yes a Jerico is lighter than a toploader (especially the BBF toploaders that I was using which come in at 110lbs. It is a well built transmission and I liked it a lot until it broke and I found that parts were being discontinued for what was once a commonly used series. They redesigned the DR series and most of the parts are not interchangeable with the prior series. I ended up switching to a clutch assist Gforce G101a that comes in at a mere 78lbs. Replacement parts are readily available for them and their support is top notch. Even though it is clutch assist, it gets shifted clutchless at the track (with Gforce's approval.) It can also be built as a clutchless model too for all track use.

                        HP is easy to build with the Lima BBF but that is only part of the performance equation. I too have had many of the concerns that you (as I approach 63) and my racing program is pretty much a 1 man effort. The windsor is definitely more friendly to work on than the Lima motor in a stock type car. Otherwise one should do a tube front end with tubbed rear and a racing suspension to make the BBF more accommodating for racing. A well built windsor can build some decent power but it takes higher rpm's to get peformance close to the BBF. Couple the windsor with good race parts, higher compression and remove as much weight as possible from the car and it can keep up and even surpass most of the heavier lower rpm BBF competition.

                        Notching the shock towers is not necessary with the windsor, but it certainly makes working on it much easier. I can remove 7 of 8 spark plugs using a rachet and extension. The #8 plug is more difficult due to limited room due to limited space remaining from using a zbar vs the steering box, brakes master cylinder, and firewall. Speaking of header clearance, notching allows a better exit of the header tubes from the head. Still it will get tight where the upper control arms are attached. I built my own 1 7/8" tube headers and took all this into account when routing them. I never done headers before and it took a couple of tries but other than the #8 tube everything is accessible including the area of the Lakewood scattershield for clutch servicing.

                        A 1 3/4" roll bar will add a little less than 100lbs to the car. Chrome moly would be lighter but more $$ to have it properly instlalled. Consider adding hinged door bars as they are not only let you easily get into/out of the car, they can be unbolted for maintenance purposes. One benefit that you may not have considered is that the roll bar will remove much of the car's flex.

                        You might consider looking into a mini-tub to install a 28x10,5x15 slick with your new expected Calvert rear suspension. The added tire height was a welcome addition vs the 26x8x15 I had previously used. I certainly don't have my Calvert suspension fully scienced out but it has gone a best of 1.37 60'er with the 434w with typical averages being low 1.4x's. I think thats pretty decent for a full weight street/strip car using steel Magnum 500 wheels.
                        Dennis

                        65' STANG Street/Strip

                        434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          FYI, a 28x10.5x15 slick will fit in a 69-70 Mustang with stock fenderwells. I even ran a set of 29x10x15 on mine once, but they didnt fit as well and actually rubbed on the very front lower corner of the body.
                          A rim with a touch more backspacing would have gotten the tire up under the fender a little better.
                          Rob Hetzler
                          M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                          Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                          My Photo Page

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I'm coming up on 50, and like you guys, my racing has become a one man operation. My set up is already at the point where if anything goes wrong, I cant repair it quickly by myself between rounds. I cant remove the passenger side valve cover without removing the injection hoses, and I cant get the center plug wires on that side on/off with the valve cover on. It was even worse until I removed the export brace. When it was still on the car, I had to remove the monte carlo bar, take the injection lines off the intake, and remove the return line from the toilet to the cell just to get the valve cover off.
                            Plus, it's all I can do at this point in later rounds to keep both cells full, charge the battery, keep an eye on the tires, and log all my data between rounds by myself.
                            I have already decided when I get ready to build a big motor, it's going to be an aftermarket block Windsor in the 450 inch range, with big TF HIghports, and I will probably even put a carb back on it.
                            Rob Hetzler
                            M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                            Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                            My Photo Page

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              IMHO....Id vote on a stroker Windsor over the BBF in your situation Ryan.
                              79 Stang, full cage,mini-tubbed,396"W,G-Force G-101 4 spd,4.71’s, tagged street/strip 10.282@130.86
                              69 Stang Vert
                              69 Stang Coupe
                              92 Stang 5.0 LX
                              other DD's

                              Comment


                              • #30


                                Dennis,

                                Thanks for sharing your good info on the Jerico and GForce's weight and the availability of service parts. To pull 1.37 - 1.40s 60ft times are AWESOME! I'd be happy with 1.5s 60ft times.

                                My Top Loader is a small spline, wide-ratio, and non-modified - but it worked well behind the 302. I had planned on selling the TL stepping up to the Jerico or a GForce with the 501", but since I've pretty much decided to go with this 427w, I'm rethinking the idea of selling off the Top Loader. Maybe a rebuild with Liberty parts would take my TL up a notch and make it more than adequate to handle the 427w. As I figured, the TL is heavier; but even with the Liberty upgrade, the $$ spent would probably be less than to go shopping for a Jerico or GForce. AND...it's my understanding that Liberty supports their stuff very well....

                                Yeah, I drank the Kool-aid and was drawn in by the lure of the Lima's easily-obtainable HP; but I didn't realize just how difficult it was going to be to get it to work in my full body, stick car. Nor do I want my car to become all twisted up or in the wall - due to me not bracing enough for the BB. I followed JSracing's build of his BB '69.. (anyone else remember him when he was a M&M regular?) ....but as you indicated and I didn't give enough consideration to, he had re-worked his '69 into a tube chassis car....much different that what I have or will have. Yep, I am also a one-man operation too....but it is what it is.....which as we know, makes for its own set of challenges when trying to trailer & maintain a race car effort beyond a slipshod effort.

                                Regarding the shock tower notching, I hear ya - not REQUIRED, but it's nicer to work on if its notched. Since I know my RH shock tower is already cracked and I want to add the BB bracing at the base before putting in the next engine - whatever it may be - notching probably wouldn't be that big of a deal - just do it.

                                I would have thought the roll bar would add more than 100#, so that's cool info to know. I like the idea of a hinged door bar for servicing under the dash and exiting/entering purposes; but I wonder just how much does having a hinged door bar take away from the rigidity of the roll bar? I suppose as long as the hinged door construction is NHRA-legal, it would be fine. As far as adding a roll bar eliminating 'car flex', when I had the Maier Racing subframe connectors welded under my car, THAT tightened it up considerably; I'd be surprised if the installation of a roll bar would make any ADDITIONAL reduction in car flex.

                                Regarding adding mini-tubs; sure I've considered it, but it is far down on my "To-Do" list. The 5-leave spring set is very stiff. Not really a bad thing when trying to I have ran a couple of different size slicks and wheels. I made a couple of passes with 29.5 x 9.0-15 slicks inside the stock wheelwells, but it was too tight and they were getting cut up. I now have 28.0 x 10.5 -15 slicks under it mounted on a pair of Centerline 10" x 15" wheels with a backspacing of 4.5", but haven't made any power passes on them. As KV expressed, my slicks also got close to the body at the front rocker panel area first. But the wheel size and backspacing makes the difference.

                                KV,
                                Do you still own your 'street' '70 Mustang pictured in your post? I didn't know you still owned it, as you don't talk much about it. I recall your sweet '69 hot rod with the Cleveland power-maker is white with blue stripes....

                                Tater,
                                Thanks for chiming in with an opinion!

                                Ryan
                                Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

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