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501" BBF - or - 427" SBF?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post

    My Top Loader is a small spline, wide-ratio, and non-modified - but it worked well behind the 302. I had planned on selling the TL stepping up to the Jerico or a GForce with the 501", but since I've pretty much decided to go with this 427w, I'm rethinking the idea of selling off the Top Loader. Maybe a rebuild with Liberty parts would take my TL up a notch and make it more than adequate to handle the 427w. As I figured, the TL is heavier; but even with the Liberty upgrade, the $$ spent would probably be less than to go shopping for a Jerico or GForce. AND...it's my understanding that Liberty supports their stuff very well...
    I can tell you from extreme experience racing using them that the TL won't last behind a 10 second windsor and a heavy car. (The first weak link you will find will be the small input shaft will twist. I solved that by using the BBF shaft.)

    I raced using Liberty for parts/advice for many years. The truth is that the Liberty TL mods (proshifting or the much improved faceplating) do NOTHING to improve the TL strength--it uses the stock gears with good improvements for high rpm shifting. Unless you have them remake every gear ($$$) with a stronger base metal there is nothing that will improve its factory HP rating.

    I can say that the work that Liberty does is top notch and if there is an issue with the work they do they will stand behind it. The proshift/faceplate mods used good material and the faceplating is pretty much bulletproof. The only real ongoing issue with Liberty is that they are a small shop and it literally can take months to get work done. I did all my own assembly work so that wasn't part of the equation. Mods on OEM parts are a secondary business and the purchasers of Liberty full on transmissions get the best and most immediate service.

    My face plated TL's worked well until with the 550hp 393w I was running but once I built the 600hp 427w it would strip the OEM teeth off the gears in almost every outing. My TL's were always shifted using a clutch so that became a real concern when I needed to drop the tranny practically every week to repair some type of gear breakage. I ended up building 2 complete toploaders to maintain my weekly racing schedule and always had other parts in process at Liberty. My diligence earned me a stick track championship against the gforced guys but it was somewhat costly to achieve. I have tons of photos of my TL exploits but, like Tater, the Photobucket extortion pretty much ended my picture posting desire.

    I lucked out and found a used but like new Jerico DR4 and that solved my breakage problem for a year and a half with the 600hp 427w. It too was always shifted with the clutch. It worked well and was running strong when I decided to swap from a 3.08 first gear to a 3.17 using Liberty parts. At the first big stick race on a well prepped track it broke the first gear and mangled the case plus several other gears. Come to find out that 2 other Jerico racers at the track also lost there Jerico the same day after doing the same mod over the winter. Apparently the gears we got from Jerico were of an inferior grade. Jerico wouldn't admit to it so repairing it was on my dime. They did offer to sell me their newest version but I didn't do it. I later found another broken Jerico with parts I needed and sold everything off to go with Gforce who help sponsor our stick events.With the G101A I shift clutchless and have some occasional breakage but Gforce can have me back at the track the following weekend if needed. My 2nd option would have been Liberty as I feel there stuff is more bulletproof but Gforce is somewhat local and are decent to work with. Tater can vouch for that.


    Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post
    I would have thought the roll bar would add more than 100#, so that's cool info to know. I like the idea of a hinged door bar for servicing under the dash and exiting/entering purposes; but I wonder just how much does having a hinged door bar take away from the rigidity of the roll bar? I suppose as long as the hinged door construction is NHRA-legal, it would be fine. As far as adding a roll bar eliminating 'car flex', when I had the Maier Racing subframe connectors welded under my car, THAT tightened it up considerably; I'd be surprised if the installation of a roll bar would make any ADDITIONAL reduction in car flex.
    The complete roll bar with eight 6x6 floor backing plates came in at 96lbs before I cutoff and discarded the extra lengths that were not needed on my 65. That was also before I decided to upgrade to the Chris Alston door bar hinge kit which added more weight than the comp engineering set I had before. They were not cheap but I like then much better than the CE as far as safety and noise is concerned. I too have subframe connectors and the roll bar did make a noticeable difference in stiffness as seen during jacking exercises. Remember that your also stiffening the car across the center side to side with the roll bar.

    Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post
    Regarding adding mini-tubs; sure I've considered it, but it is far down on my "To-Do" list. The 5-leave spring set is very stiff. Not really a bad thing when trying to I have ran a couple of different size slicks and wheels. I made a couple of passes with 29.5 x 9.0-15 slicks inside the stock wheelwells, but it was too tight and they were getting cut up. I now have 28.0 x 10.5 -15 slicks under it mounted on a pair of Centerline 10" x 15" wheels with a backspacing of 4.5", but haven't made any power passes on them. As KV expressed, my slicks also got close to the body at the front rocker panel area first. But the wheel size and backspacing makes the difference.
    I originally didn't know what car you were running so that is why I suggested the mini-tub at first. The 28.0 x 10.5 -15 stiff wall slicks were used by some of the fastest small tire cars in our stick group so that is why I set my car up for them. Taller would would probably be better but that is not in the cards for my car (without substantial more work.)

    Before I bought the Calvert mono leafs I also tried 5 leaf springs,which I later found worked better at track after I removed 1 of the leaves on both sides. Later when I swapped in the Mono leafs I saw zero improvement over the modified 5 leafs. It took further tuning to get into the 1.5 second range. It wasn't until I removed the Calvert 90/10s from the front and went with DA shocks that the car started hitting the 1.4's. Interestingly, swapping out the Calvert/Rancho 9 way shocks in the rear for DA's knocked the suspension out of whack and started breaking the rear shock mount on the driver's side. I reinstalled the 9 ways and the car still liked them as before and gave me the best 60's. Interestingly a friend who races a 70 Mustang had the same results an found the Calvert rears to work better than DA's. He's a little more hardcore than me and now has his DA shocks equipped with transducers so he can read shock data on a computer.

    Dennis

    65' STANG Street/Strip

    434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post


      KV,
      Do you still own your 'street' '70 Mustang pictured in your post? I didn't know you still owned it, as you don't talk much about it. I recall your sweet '69 hot rod with the Cleveland power-maker is white with blue stripes....

      Yeah, I still have it. That was purchased for me as a high school graduation gift by my grandparents, so I will still have that car in my possession when I die.
      It doesnt run currently and is in dire need of some mechanical work, plus REALLY needs all the paint stripped off and repainted. There is so much paint on the car, it is cracking and peeling off in big chunks now. And since I have a list of stuff around here longer than my arm that always needs attention, I cant find time to even getting my 70 back to running again.

      Rob Hetzler
      M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
      Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

      My Photo Page

      Comment


      • #33
        Dennis,
        Again, thanks for sharing your experiences with me.... I have followed your racing discussions here on M&M (because you seem like a straight shooter type of fella AND because you're pulling on a stick shift ) and I respect your words.
        I will seriously consider your shared experiences regarding the TL capabilities. I don't have the time, experience, $$$ nor desire to try to blaze a new trail when there is already a trusted trail to follow. Meaning, I have no desire to "... ended up building 2 complete toploaders to maintain my weekly racing schedule and always had other parts in process at Liberty."

        I haven't spent any time looking at the different roll bars available for a '69FB. However, I will make a note to look at the Chris Alston stuff, specifically their door hinge kit. I suspect I will also need to change out my front seats and belts when the roll bar goes in...to accommodate a horizontal bar behind the seats.

        If I'm understanding you correctly, your experience with Calvert's monoleaf system didn't provide a noticeable improvement over your modified 5-leaf setup. Which leaf did you pull out? I have come to realize from listening to you, Tater and other stick guys, that I WILL need to upgrade my shocks. I currently have cheapo/old Gabriel Pro-Shockers 3-way front shocks, set on 90/10 and Rancho 5-way shocks out back...sad I know. I also have (never-installed, still wrapped in newspaper) some rollerized front pieces; Money Maker Racing roller adjustable strut rods, OpenTracker Upper and lower control arms and OT coil spring perches.

        KV,
        I feel you..... too many wants, not enough time, $$ or energy.
        A major item in my 2018 goals -- to reduce the To-Do list, either by doing it or simply selling it off...... by not acting in some way is depressing AND I'm simply tired of looking at or walking around it all.

        Ryan




        Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

        Comment


        • #34
          Thank You for the kind words Ryan. I won't say that the toploader didn't work well for me over several years but I outgrew its unofficial 600hp capabilities (which are somewhat optimistic in a heavier car.) There really isn't any other OEM factory 4 or 5 speed that will outdo it. The 6 speed T56 possibly would but from what I hear they aren't the best for shifting at the track.

          I essentially use stock Mustang seats in my car. I didn't want to use the original 65' short-backed seat when I installed the roll bar and instead installed a set of high back 71' Mach 1 seats in place of them. To route the racing belts I removed the upholstery on the driver's upright and cut 2 rectangular holes in the metal backing. I then reupholstered the seat and added aftermarket interlocking seat belt bushings to make it look factory. For the submarine belt I didn't cut the seat, I simply made an attachment to the floor pan in front of the cushion. It may not be the best way safety wise but it is legal to do this when you use an OEM seat. It also allows me to move the seat fore and aft on its factory tracks. I'm tall so my cross bar is mounted just behind the seat when the seat is fully rearward. Its all done 100% by the book for a 10.00 or slower car. True race seats will be lighter and have provisions to run the belts through them-fairly cheap too.

          I sourced my roll bar from a shop that is somewhat local to me and then spent a month installing it to meet my expectations. Lots of hacking, cutting and grinding involved to get it the way I wanted. I have to admit that I am pretty particular in how mods are done to the car so I try to afford the necessary time in doing them.

          I really don't remember off hand which leaf I removed but will look today to see if I remember as I reassembled the extra leaves when they were removed. As I said, initially I saw no immediate gains in the mono-leafs (but expected to get instant gratification at the time.) I can't say they were needed with the lower HP 393w they were behind nor have I tried swapping back to the 5 leafs since. Pretty sure that they they are helping me now though.

          Yes you should see some gain with better shocks. The front DA's will allow you to control the weight transfer during launch better than the 90/10's which are essentially the same as running no shocks. I've used them to control wheelies by slowing down weight transfer. With a high HP stick car, its all about trying to soften the initial hit on the tires-- shocks are one of your main weapons and the other is the clutch. We use racing clutches that offer some adjustability of the clamping force. Not only can they improve your RT's, they also help soften the blow to the drivetrain which saves parts.

          Also, I have found that suspension tricks that work for an auto car do not always work with the stick counterpart. That has been the hard thing to master and it requires you to figure out what YOUR car wants as no 2 seem to work the same.
          Last edited by Dennis112; 01-07-2018, 05:23 AM.
          Dennis

          65' STANG Street/Strip

          434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

          Comment


          • #35
            Dennis, if you still have some of your Toploader carnage pics. you’ll have to e-mail some of them to Ryan. I remember them being pretty impressive! I have 2 good small in/out wide ratio Toploaders on the shelf and after seeing your struggles/carnage I think they’d be better off being sold at a parts swapmeet for someone with a street type build than just tearing them up.
            79 Stang, full cage,mini-tubbed,396"W,G-Force G-101 4 spd,4.71’s, tagged street/strip 10.282@130.86
            69 Stang Vert
            69 Stang Coupe
            92 Stang 5.0 LX
            other DD's

            Comment


            • #36
              Lets see if these work . . . .

              TL carnage from 3 different events. Shifted into 3rd:

              Toploader3rdgear009.jpg

              The last straw which occurred 2 weeks later when shifting into 2nd (notice the Jerico Faceplating is unharmed):

              Shifters028.jpg

              I saved my favorite for last. A fresh Jerico toploader on the first launch of the year:

              Dennistranscarnage2.jpg

              The only major part that was re-useable was the tailhousing! Amazingly I was still able to drive it back to the trailer . . . .

              Just for the heck of it, here is the harness modified 71 mach 1 seat that I mentioned:

              Morebackseatalso016.jpg
              FrontSeatUpholstery092.jpg
              Dennis

              65' STANG Street/Strip

              434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

              Comment


              • #37
                Tater/Dennis,
                Ok, you've succeeded in scaring me!

                Dennis,
                I like what you did to the seat frame! Classy indeed!

                Ryan
                Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                Comment


                • #38
                  One more which was from the old 393w when it had about 400hp and still was using the SBF input. It is a stock wide ratio box and was clutched shifted with the gas pedal held firmly to the floor when shifted (which is how I normally raced all TL's and the Jerico:

                  image_10874.jpg


                  2 twisted wide ratio inputs in 2 consecutive weeks (which I solved by using BBF inputs.) Luckily it didn't affect anything else in the tranny when they twisted. This is a common TL problem when raced with slicks and one can also twist them off completely.
                  Last edited by Dennis112; 01-07-2018, 08:25 AM.
                  Dennis

                  65' STANG Street/Strip

                  434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    So - did you drop the transmission to simply inspect it or what were the symptoms of a twisted input shaft?

                    Ryan
                    Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post
                      So - did you drop the transmission to simply inspect it or what were the symptoms of a twisted input shaft?

                      Ryan
                      Symptom was hard grinding shifts with properly adjusted clutch. The clutch disc could not free wheel since it couldn't move away from the flywheel due to the twisted splines. I needed to drop the TL to find it. Not too hard to replace without needing to totally disassemble the tranny.
                      Dennis

                      65' STANG Street/Strip

                      434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        .... Roger that.

                        Ryan
                        Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by kid vishus View Post
                          All that said, if this was MY project, it would all depend on if I could recoup my expenses from the BB or not. If I could get most of the money back that I had already spent, I would go with the smallblock.
                          Ok, I've got to get this thread back on track (pardon the pun)........

                          So, as was indicated earlier, over the years, I've bought a good share of stroker BBF parts. Since I'm leaning hard toward the 427w and giving up on the completion of the 501" BBF, I need to do as KV indicated above.

                          Most of these BBF parts have never been assembled, let alone fired up. The only assembly done is the pistons are mounted on the rods with double Spiro-locks and the assembly of the heads (2.25/1.76 Ferrea valves, dbl springs, Ti retainers, etc.) and they're bench flowed and port matched to the intake by an known BBF builder located out West. They also did the custom solid roller cam for me. I understand that the custom ground camshaft might not fetch most of its cost back, but the cast-steel Eagle stroker crank (internally balanced), assembled Al heads, forged pistons/H-beam rods/rings, flowed 4500 intake, Blue Thunder main cap girdle & studs, ATI Super dampener, solid roller lifters, main and rod brgs, ARP head studs, head gaskets, oil pan gasket, RACE gasket set, dbl pinned timing gear & dbl roller chain.....still in their clean, dry boxes. Only the seasoned block is used; but it is de-burred, machined 30 over 460 block with oil passages re-worked, Hard Blok, etc

                          Nearly all of the parts cost more today than when I bought them...some 10% more, others over 30% more.
                          I know better than to think I could get 100% of MY cost back.....let alone sell them for 100% of their current going prices.
                          I know that hot rod part prices can be all over the map....But - I've got to ask:

                          is it realistic to think I could sell most of these parts for 85% of MY purchase costs?

                          What do you guys think - give me your best educated & seasoned guesstimates.......


                          Ryan
                          Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Shipping is going to hurt your resale percentage IMHO. With places like Summit offering free shipping on purchases over $100 which most of your parts are, the overall price may end up close to new. You have some pretty nice stuff though, it should sell quick and get good money.
                            1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
                            347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
                            363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

                            2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
                            244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


                            Current CI Count - 103

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Poppy65 View Post
                              Shipping is going to hurt your resale percentage IMHO. With places like Summit offering free shipping on purchases over $100 which most of your parts are, the overall price may end up close to new. You have some pretty nice stuff though, it should sell quick and get good money.
                              Thanks again for your input, assurances and wishful thinking, Poppy65.

                              Agreed. Shipping could be a big issue...... or not, depending on where the parts need to go. I should consider some options in that department. Of course, I'd be up to discuss the option of delivering a sizable purchase (most or all of the parts) within a reasonable distance (<200 miles) for the right price on the parts. Stay tuned in.... and I'll report back.

                              Ryan




                              Ryan
                              Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                I'm a little late, but here it goes anyways...

                                I would think getting 80-85% of your original money back out of it should be attainable. I would try to sell it as a package deal, it might be more appealing that way since it's all basically there to be put together. Plus, it is an engine family that racers still actually run. My cleveland stuff...nope, not an easy sell. No one breaks their 302 and says, "i'm gonna build a cleveland" anymore, they build 460s and Windsors. But guys do decide that when they want to go fast they will switch to a 460 based motor. And yours might really appeal to someone that is ready to make the leap, or someone that is looking for an upgrade, or a backup to a really BIG motor.
                                OK, so I got off track, that shouldn't surprise anyone.
                                Shipping would be a hit, but I would make that part of the price. Who knows, you might get lucky and find someone fairly local that wants it all.
                                Rob Hetzler
                                M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                                Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                                My Photo Page

                                Comment

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