Brought to you in part by:
Thirteen Years!

...

Nineteen Years!
.

Click here to see a list of our Supporters.
  • If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

501" BBF - or - 427" SBF?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #46
    KV,
    Thanks! I'll gladly take your vote of confidence with the possibility of getting 80-85% of my original costs - and the shipping costs could be 'negotiated' in which I'd agree to pay half or deliver if close enough.....

    However, I can't say I I agree with your analysis regarding the popularity of 351c power. Ok, I'll agree there are not be as many folks at the track or at cruise night running Cleveland power as the 'popular' 351w-based or 385-series stuff, but the Clevelands do have a following, similar to the FE fans or even the y-block bunch..... Heck, I look at all Fords as a minority when at the track or cruise-in; cause when I look around - I see a sea of Chebbies, just as I always have.....but I like to call them "belly-button cars".
    Yeah, Clevelands will be expensive to build, but then I'd say ALL Fords cost more to build and race than Chebbies...so there we have it. Sure, less selection, less support by the aftermarket, but that has been pretty normal with Ford stuff, right? But you have to admit - it sure is fun getting a chance to spank on a few Chebbies with your only-four-years-of-production Clevelands, ay KV?

    If we want to talk about under-discussed, even less examples of at the track or cruise-ins, or near no aftermarket support... let's talk about the few brave souls out there still trying to build up Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Cadillac or Buick-based powerplants.....

    Ryan
    Last edited by Ryan Wilke; 01-12-2018, 06:46 PM.
    Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post


      Rory,
      I really appreciate your input...... I have always admired your racing program.... I like that you're a stick guy.... that you still have your '74 F350 listed in your signature....thanks for the words of wisdom & experience. I like the idea of pulling the front hoops, and especially the part of it coming down easy like....which has been a concern of mine when I think about the BBF stuffed up front.
      (By the way, you mentioned you run a 5.13 gear in your Mustang with your 331,,, Dang! what rpm do you cross the stripe at?)




      Ryan



      Ryan, I thought that you were refering to my Fairmont, which has the 5.13s. My 85 Mustang either ran 9x29 Hoosiers, or 9x29 1/2" M/T slicks. Although I had ran 5.13s in the Mustangs 8.8 back when I raced it in Stock Eliminator at 107 MPH, with the 331, I ran 4.88s, which made for 7200 RPM thru the traps at 128 MPH. I also found that the 4.88s were much stronger than the 5.13s in the 8.8. I shredded 2 sets of 5.13s over 8 years , running low to mid 12s, with low 1.6 60 foots, with the 4.88s 3 years of running 10.3&4s, with a best 60 foot of 1.36, the gears still looked great.
      As for my 74 F350 ramp truck, I did sell it in 2014 after I bought my 1999 F350 Dually and enclosed trailer. But since I sold the truck to a local drag racer, I see the old truck almost every race weekend, since he hauls his 11 second Chevy S10 pickup with it.
      THis shot of the Mustang was in Stocker trim. With the 331 it launched much higher, but the only good shots were taken by track photographers, and I don`t know how to post them from my Facebook page. Same with the Fairmont with the 331, I have shots from track photogs with the rear bumper about 3" off the ground, but unable to post it here. The shot of the ramp truck with the Fairmont on its back is probably from 1990 or 91 when the Fairmont had a mild 428 & C6 in it. Other than I painted the trucks front fenders shortly after that shot (new factory Ford fenders in shipping primer), and painted the deck, the old truck still looks pretty much identical. Over the 26 years I had that truck, it got me and the cars ( 1 at a time of course!) to & from dragstrips all over BC Canada, Washington State, Oregon and California, and never let me down once. And other than a couple of exhaust systems, it never set foot into a shop for repairs, or got towed. The only reason I ever sold the truck was because years ago, I told a racing buddy from Oregon (a Ford Super Stock racer ) , if he ever decided to sell his 99 F350 Dually that he factory ordered new, I was interested. I got that call in late 2013.
      Attached Files
      Last edited by Rory McNeil; 01-13-2018, 01:01 AM.
      1978 Fairmont 428CJ 4 speed 9.972@132.54.mph[/ 1.29 60 foot.
      1985 Mustang NHRA Stock eliminator 302 4 speed M/S 12.31@106.99 mph, with 331 bracket engine: 10.29@128.71 1.37 50 foot
      1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan 332 FE auto (finally under construction witha 428CJ and 4 speed.)
      1974 F350 ramp truck 390 4 speed (gone buy not forgotten)
      2010 Ranger PU 2.3L 5 speed
      1999 F350 dually, V10 5 speed

      Comment


      • #48
        Rory,
        Thanks for your clarifications, sharing your performance data and the SWEET pictures!

        I don't know if I've ever seen a pic of the '74 F350 Dually before.... Too Cool! Did you build the ramp bed or have it custom built? Do you recall what the wheelbase length was? I'd guess the truck had a weight of probably about 6K# empty with a 10K# CGVW with car and gear? It looks like a sweet setup..... Cheers to you, Mr. McNeil!

        Ryan
        Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

        Comment


        • #49
          You are pretty close on the weights! As for the deck, I bought it used from a fellow racer, who had it built in 1980, for hauling his 70 Mach 1 G/SA car. When he sold the Mustang, he sold his truck without the deck, and I bought the deck from a guy he had sold it to. I was originally going to have my trucks frame streched 2 1/2 feet and have a custom made bare bones deck built, but this deck was available, and basically fit right onto my truck 161" wheelbase chassis, so I went with that. In addition to a large, lockable storage box on each side, the space between the deck on either side was a fully boxed in "cubby hole", so it had plenty of room for a couple of spare tires, a floor jack, jack stands etc.
          When I first bought the truck, it had originally had a dump box as it was a landscapers truck, which had been removed. With just bare frame rails behind the cab, the truck was just under 5000 pounds, the car hauler deck and ramps was another 1700 pounds, so by the time the 2 were mated, 6700 pounds empty. The trucks GVW was rated at 10,000 lbs, but with a car, tools, spare parts, fuel, water etc, it was usually between 10,300 & 10,500 lbs when on the road.Around 2008, I added a hitch reciever to the back, so I could haul a pit scooter on one of those motorcycle carriers that fit into the reciever. That added another 200 pounds. Even still, being over the max GVW, the 14 leaf springs per side only had the back of the truck drop about 1" , when fully loaded. In fact, there was still about 1" between the upper overload springs and their contact pads. By comparison, my 99 F350 sinks the rear by about 4"s, just from the tonque weight on my 24 foot enclosed trailer. The old truck was very basic , but easy to drive and dead nuts reliable. Plus it was a hell of a lot easier to back into my driveway, on a busy street, than the Dually/trailer combo is. It certainly served me well for 26 years.
          1978 Fairmont 428CJ 4 speed 9.972@132.54.mph[/ 1.29 60 foot.
          1985 Mustang NHRA Stock eliminator 302 4 speed M/S 12.31@106.99 mph, with 331 bracket engine: 10.29@128.71 1.37 50 foot
          1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan 332 FE auto (finally under construction witha 428CJ and 4 speed.)
          1974 F350 ramp truck 390 4 speed (gone buy not forgotten)
          2010 Ranger PU 2.3L 5 speed
          1999 F350 dually, V10 5 speed

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post

            If we want to talk about under-discussed, even less examples of at the track or cruise-ins, or near no aftermarket support... let's talk about the few brave souls out there still trying to build up Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Cadillac or Buick-based powerplants.....

            Ryan
            My buddy just dyno'd a 500 plus inch Buick after the owner made a cam and intake porting changes He throws it on the pump every winter for him as they look for power during the cold time of year. He's got over 30k into the engine and it put out 735hp @ 6,600rpm . You could do that with a BBC for 10 grand all day long.
            1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
            347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
            363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

            2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
            244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


            Current CI Count - 103

            Comment


            • #51
              That ramp truck is killer Rory! How'd you get the car on without hitting the headers?
              1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
              347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
              363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

              2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
              244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


              Current CI Count - 103

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by Poppy65 View Post
                That ramp truck is killer Rory! How'd you get the car on without hitting the headers?
                I would suspect Rory had longer-than-most approach ramps.....

                Ryan
                Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                Comment


                • #53
                  Yeah, headers were never an issue. The ramps are 6 feet long, and combined with the angle of the trucks deck, there was really no "break over" angle to worry about. The ramps and deck were essentially at the same angle, so just straight up to the top.
                  1978 Fairmont 428CJ 4 speed 9.972@132.54.mph[/ 1.29 60 foot.
                  1985 Mustang NHRA Stock eliminator 302 4 speed M/S 12.31@106.99 mph, with 331 bracket engine: 10.29@128.71 1.37 50 foot
                  1959 Ford Meteor 2 dr sedan 332 FE auto (finally under construction witha 428CJ and 4 speed.)
                  1974 F350 ramp truck 390 4 speed (gone buy not forgotten)
                  2010 Ranger PU 2.3L 5 speed
                  1999 F350 dually, V10 5 speed

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Poppy65 View Post
                    Any idea what heads are on it Ryan? The 427w we built for my ex-BIL's Cougar was a basic zero maintenance hydraulic cam combo and that made 540ish lb's of torque so they're really no slouch either. My vote (not like it matters to anyone, lol) would be for the 427....
                    Hi Fellas,
                    Finally got some more info on the 427w package:


                    Block: '69 351W block bored 030 over.
                    Cylinder heads: #TFS-52400004-CNC R-series
                    Valves: 2.08"Int / 1.60" Exh valves
                    Combustion Chamber: 61cc, Twisted Wedge, 10.50 CR
                    Intake Runner Volume: 206cc

                    Probe Racing Rotating Assembly - consisting of:
                    Con-rods: 6.125" long ultralight I beam rods with a Rod Ratio of: 1.469
                    Pistons: JE SRP 4.030" flat tops with 22cc valve relief,
                    Crank: 4.170" stroke 4340 forged steel with 2.10" rod journals
                    and a Main Cap Girdle and ARP stud kit


                    The builder told me he plugged in a single plane intake, long tube headers, cam (0.597" lift, 300"/312" duration, 114* CLA) on his
                    Desk Top Dyno and it said it should make:

                    @ RPMs BHP Torque
                    4500 449 524

                    5500 548 524
                    6500 578 467
                    7000 562 422


                    ........Sounds fun, ay?

                    Question: Based on what info I have been able to locate on the interweb, these TFS heads are apparently 10+yrs old.
                    The literature I located said their exhaust port is raised 0.5" higher than OEM.
                    Does that mean I'd have to have custom-made headers?

                    Ryan
                    Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Pretty nice set of heads for sure. I would assume the pistons are correct for the altered valve locations? If you have room to raise the exhaust a half inch I don't see why you would need different headers? Are you still running a Z bar?
                      1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
                      347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
                      363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

                      2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
                      244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


                      Current CI Count - 103

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        I can speak from experience, if the headers were a tight fit to begin with, moving the motor (or where the headers bolt on) half an inch in any direction can create some major headaches. When I lowered my motor half an inch and moved it back half an inch, the headers that fit pretty good to start with, suddenly hit everything possible and required an act of congress to get in the car. Same headers that were designed for a 9.2 deck block, when used with a 9.5 deck block werent as difficult to mount as when I moved the motor, but it wasnt exactly easy either.
                        Rob Hetzler
                        M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                        Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                        My Photo Page

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Poppy65 View Post
                          Pretty nice set of heads for sure. I would assume the pistons are correct for the altered valve locations? If you have room to raise the exhaust a half inch I don't see why you would need different headers? Are you still running a Z bar?
                          Poppy,
                          Agreed, the heads are nice - however, they were machined for the Fel-Pro Loc-Wire head gasket as well; and I'm not too sure they are a good thing or a liability. I doubt they would be necessary for a N/A engine. The builder assured me the pistons are correct for the heads.
                          In regards to your second question - to be clear - you are referring to the clutch release equalizer bar, correct? If so, then yes, that would be the plan. Although I suspect the 351w equalizer bar would be different from the bar that I ran previously with the 302 engine.

                          I don't know the answer to the header question....maybe no big deal, maybe a HUGE BIG DEAL,,, as KV mentioned can happen and did with his Cleveland mill.
                          I believe my 302 engine mounts should work with the 351w-based 427w, along with the 302 timing cover and 302 Moroso deep oil pan and pickup.

                          I had convinced myself I'd be notching the shock towers when I was aiming at stuffing in the BBF, and I would still try to locate the BB tower stiffening kit, the same kit that our Steve L. installed in his /70 Mach1, and get the kit welded into my hot rod.....so I may still be better served if I was to still notch the towers, considering the likely possibility of issues with the headers.

                          Ryan

                          P.S.
                          Oh yeah, the shock tower stiffening kit and the shock tower wheel side brace kit can be obtained through OpenTracker Racing.....
                          Last edited by Ryan Wilke; 02-06-2018, 08:05 PM.
                          Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post

                            Poppy,
                            Agreed, the heads are nice - however, they were machined for the Fel-Pro Loc-Wire head gasket as well; and I'm not too sure they are a good thing or a liability. I doubt they would be necessary for a N/A engine. The builder assured me the pistons are correct for the heads.
                            In regards to your second question - to be clear - you are referring to the clutch release equalizer bar, correct? If so, then yes, that would be the plan. Although I suspect the 351w equalizer bar would be different from the bar that I ran previously with the 302 engine.

                            I don't know the answer to the header question....maybe no big deal, maybe a HUGE BIG DEAL,,, as KV mentioned can happen and did with his Cleveland mill.
                            I believe my 302 engine mounts should work with the 351w-based 427w, along with the 302 timing cover and 302 Moroso deep oil pan and pickup.

                            I had convinced myself I'd be notching the shock towers when I was aiming at stuffing in the BBF, and I would still try to locate the BB tower stiffening kit, the same kit that our Steve L. installed in his /70 Mach1, and get the kit welded into my hot rod.....so I may still be better served if I was to still notch the towers, considering the likely possibility of issues with the headers.

                            Ryan

                            P.S.
                            Oh yeah, the shock tower stiffening kit and the shock tower wheel side brace kit can be obtained through OpenTracker Racing.....
                            302 Zbar should fit the 351w, no problem. The width and pivot location are the same (assuming the 351w block has the boss for the pivot. I've had to drill and tap later year blocks that had the boss). I use the same zbar/accompanying parts as a 289 would have in my 65'. The real z bar issue will be that it will probably have interference with the 302 headers unless the window between the tubes is large enough to work when the headers are fitted to the 351w setup (which has 1+ inches higher ports.) You can try the 302 headers but I sincerely doubt they will work and might be considered too small for a 408w motor.

                            Timing cover, water pump and balancer will interchange if your using parts from an older 302 with 28oz imbalance( unless the new rotating assembly was balanced to something else.) Brackets can be an issue with this swap.

                            The motor mounts will definitely interchange but the oil pan/pump absolutely will not. Valve covers will interchange but distributor absolutely will not. Intake manifolds will not interchange but the thermostat housing will. Bellhousings will interchange. The flywheel will interchange if its off an older 302 with 28oz imbalance (unless the new rotating assembly was balanced to something else.)
                            Dennis

                            65' STANG Street/Strip

                            434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Dennis112 View Post

                              302 Zbar should fit the 351w, no problem. The width and pivot location are the same (assuming the 351w block has the boss for the pivot. I've had to drill and tap later year blocks that had the boss). I use the same zbar/accompanying parts as a 289 would have in my 65'. The real z bar issue will be that it will probably have interference with the 302 headers unless the window between the tubes is large enough to work when the headers are fitted to the 351w setup (which has 1+ inches higher ports.) You can try the 302 headers but I sincerely doubt they will work and might be considered too small for a 408w motor.

                              Timing cover, water pump and balancer will interchange if your using parts from an older 302 with 28oz imbalance( unless the new rotating assembly was balanced to something else.) Brackets can be an issue with this swap.

                              The motor mounts will definitely interchange but the oil pan/pump absolutely will not. Valve covers will interchange but distributor absolutely will not. Intake manifolds will not interchange but the thermostat housing will. Bellhousings will interchange. The flywheel will interchange if its off an older 302 with 28oz imbalance (unless the new rotating assembly was balanced to something else.)
                              Dennis,
                              Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge......

                              Because it is a '69 casting block, I am assuming it will have the boss for the pivot. Good to hear the Zbar and associated linkages should work. Clutch linkage questions was a "no-mans land" when considering the 460 block in the '69. All I heard was, "BOSS stuff should work." Nowadays, they call that stuff made from "Unobtainium".

                              Yes, it has been balanced with the earlier 28-oz imbalance.

                              I guess I was mistaken about the 302 oil pan fitting on the 351w block......but pleasantly surprised to hear the rocker arm covers, water pump and the timing cover will work.
                              I knew the 302 bellhousing would bolt to the 351w. Bummer that the 302 distributor will not work.....

                              I would likely try the 302 headers, but I'm concerned they would not work. As I mentioned earlier, I'm concerned especially concerned about the re-located exhaust ports (up 0.5" from OE location) as well.

                              ANYONE:
                              If anyone knows someone running these TFS-CNC, R-series cylinder heads on a 351w block with a stick shift in a '69/'70 Mustang....please ask them what headers they are using......as I would really appreciate knowing at least a brand name.


                              THANKS IN ADVANCE, GUYS!!

                              Ryan
                              Quality means doing it right when no one is looking. - Henry Ford

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Ryan Wilke View Post

                                Dennis,
                                Thanks for sharing your experience and knowledge......

                                Because it is a '69 casting block, I am assuming it will have the boss for the pivot. Good to hear the Zbar and associated linkages should work. Clutch linkage questions was a "no-mans land" when considering the 460 block in the '69. All I heard was, "BOSS stuff should work." Nowadays, they call that stuff made from "Unobtainium".

                                Yes, it has been balanced with the earlier 28-oz imbalance.

                                I guess I was mistaken about the 302 oil pan fitting on the 351w block......but pleasantly surprised to hear the rocker arm covers, water pump and the timing cover will work.
                                I knew the 302 bellhousing would bolt to the 351w. Bummer that the 302 distributor will not work.....

                                I would likely try the 302 headers, but I'm concerned they would not work. As I mentioned earlier, I'm concerned especially concerned about the re-located exhaust ports (up 0.5" from OE location) as well.

                                ANYONE:
                                If anyone knows someone running these TFS-CNC, R-series cylinder heads on a 351w block with a stick shift in a '69/'70 Mustang....please ask them what headers they are using......as I would really appreciate knowing at least a brand name.


                                THANKS IN ADVANCE, GUYS!!

                                Ryan
                                Yes, the 69' block will have the clutch pivot boss and it will be drilled so not problem there. Getting headers for a raised port head in an early Mustang isn't easy and the only place I know of off hand that can probably accommodate them AND the z bar is Accufab. The problem is that their headers are somewhat spendy (probably have near a grand in them) and they will still most likely still have fitting issues that will need resolved.

                                I ended up building my own large tube headers for the raised port Victor heads that I use. Each winter I make little changes to them to improve functionality (spark plug, starter, z bar access) and can now say they fit like a glove (although OJ would still have a hard time putting them on.) It really wasn't that hard to do if you can tack weld the tubes in place and then have them tig'ed afterwards by a professional.
                                Dennis

                                65' STANG Street/Strip

                                434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:33, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.91@135.56

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X