Brought to you in part by:
Thirteen Years!

...

Nineteen Years!
.

Click here to see a list of our Supporters.
  • If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Next bracket motor to ponder....

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Next bracket motor to ponder....

    My bro-law and I have the Cougar ready for the track this year. (Ok, HE has it ready, heís really busted his ass on it, I helped and drank beers! Lol ) Its been a while! Anyhow he will be driving it again in the points program at Norwalk this year.

    Question to ponder is he has go fasteritits real bad and is planning on another motor build this fall/winter with a goal to be deep into the 10 sec range.

    It will be a stroker Windsor but my (our) question is what size? We are running 11.30ís now with a 358 Canfield head motor and solid flat tappet cam.

    These Windsor strokers can get sick big now but as it will be a bracket race motor longevity is important too. Iím a little
    conservative and think either a 392 or 408 with roller cam will fill the bill. Or should we go bigger? 427 or Iíve seen 460 Windsors! Wow!

    And what heads? Would prefer to stay inline versus canted valve / Cleveland head. Leaning toward AFRís but open.

    I have another 69 Windsor untouched that likely will be the base for build.

    If it matters, they run 1/8 mile here now in the points series in all classes.
    Mike Gasdick 69 Cougar XR-7 , 14:1 358W Canfield heads, CalTrac's / split mono's, "Mighty Mite" C4 w/trans-brake. 11.31.so far.
    2010 F150, 4.6L 2wd
    2002 F250 Superduty 4x4 with a spark plug spittin', manifold crackin' , fuse box burnin , 5.4 !

  • #2
    In a factory block, go 408. It doesn't make sense to build a 393 in the long run. The old 393 cost the same but is actually heavier and can be a little more work than going with the 4" stroke 408. The 393 can require more mallory to balance ($$). Use a cap screw rod with either to cut down on clearance issues.

    With a big bore aftermarket block, go 427 or 434.

    No matter what you build, factor in a good set of heads at that is where the REAL power is made.
    Dennis

    65' STANG Street/Strip

    434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:56, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.66@140.65

    Comment


    • #3
      I thought your could fit 427 cubes in a stock 351w block? Agreed 100% with the heads. You may want to give Chad Speier a call and check out his heads. The guy knows his stuff and the prices aren't to bad either.

      http://speierracingheads.com/index.html
      1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
      347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
      363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

      2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
      244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


      Current CI Count - 104

      Comment


      • #4
        A 427 is indeed possible in a stock block, but it requires extra clearancing vs the 408 and, IIRC, a reduced base circle cam. The longer the stroke, the greater the chances of main cap walk in a stock block (which is the 351w's #1 weakness.) IIRC, the stock block 427 uses a 4.170" stroke. The 408's 4" stroke minimizes this issue as do aftermarket blocks with 4 bolt billet caps.

        There are only a limited variety of reduced circle cam selections available and they are not recommended for true performance builds as they allow the cam to flex more, creating a less stable valvetrain. The 408 uses a standard base circle cam.

        Another option that could be considered is a 418 (which uses a 4.1" stroke). It too uses a standard base circle cam but will load the main caps more than the 408w.

        For longevity, the 408w is tops, especially if the rotating assembly is neutral balanced. 7K rpm's will be about the max the stock block should be pushed, with 6500 or so being a good safety buffer for the main caps. (Note that as the cubes increase, the safe max rpm's will need to be decreased.)
        Last edited by Dennis112; 03-21-2018, 06:21 PM.
        Dennis

        65' STANG Street/Strip

        434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:56, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.66@140.65

        Comment


        • #5
          As far as inline heads, the AFR 205/220 s are a good choice for an out of the box solution on a factory block, as are the TEA prepped 225/240 highports for mid to low 10's in lighter NA cars.

          What's the expected race weight (car plus driver(s)?)
          Dennis

          65' STANG Street/Strip

          434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:56, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.66@140.65

          Comment


          • #6
            I would have loved to go TEA highports if it where the for the raised exhaust ports. Great heads
            1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
            347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
            363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

            2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
            244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


            Current CI Count - 104

            Comment


            • #7
              What do you think of the newer RHS stuff Dennis"?
              1965 Poppy Red Three Peddle Gear Banger
              347 Stock Block Pump Gas Street/Strip 10.44 @ 125.97 Old Combo
              363 Dart Block Pump Gas Street/Strip - 10.11 @ 133.17 so far

              2005 Torch Red Topless Three Peddle 12 valve Monster
              244 Stock Block Pump Gas Street /Street Much Slower


              Current CI Count - 104

              Comment


              • #8
                At some point in the near future if I can ever get all these large unexpected expenses to stop, I will be switching from cleveland junk to a windsor based motor.
                I have to agree on the 408 with a stock block. You can get more, but it seems the guys running the bigger motors at the track have issues with blocks breaking.
                I would go with either the big AFR heads, or high ports. If the car isn't excessively heavy, that will easily get you into the low 10's, if not high 9s.
                I you wanted to go to a straight up race head, the Victor head is pretty impressive, but requires shaft rockers, special pistons, and no one offers an out of the box header for them. They make big power though.
                Rob Hetzler
                M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                My Photo Page

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by kid vishus View Post
                  I you wanted to go to a straight up race head, the Victor head is pretty impressive, but requires shaft rockers, special pistons, and no one offers an out of the box header for them. They make big power though.
                  That's what I run--Duane Busch ported 7721 Victors. It was about the minimum inline head needed to get my 3550lb race weight NA street turd into the high 9's on 93 octane pump gas. Accufab makes headers for the Victor 2.5" exhaust port spacing, but not to put them on a big Windsor. I started with the 1 7/8" tube Accufabs but ended up rerouting almost every tube to make them fit as I wanted them to. Some off the shelf forged pistons can be clearanced for the 15* angled valves. I got good forged customs for a little under a grand.

                  Duane's price on a new set of ported 7721's are about 1/2 the cost of a set from TEA and other well known porters would be. That definitely helps offset the cost of the shaft rockers, pistons, and headers. Duane starts with raw porter's castings with new stainless valves and ports the heads to match what the car needs to run the #. He also specs everything the motor needs to make it happen. Another plus of the 7721 is that although the intake ports are also raised, you can use standard height intake manifolds. I use a Busch ported Super Vic for hood clearance, but a 2828 would be better for such a build. The heads also require the use of a pair of china wall intake manifold spacers. These simple pieces of 1/2" aluminum are $100 from Edelbrock. Having seen them I could have made my own.
                  Dennis

                  65' STANG Street/Strip

                  434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:56, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.66@140.65

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Car is 3100lbs now and wont expect that to change with newer motor. Hearing somewhat a confirmation on my thinking; 220 AFR HEAD 408 CID with my 69 block. Was thinking stud girdle bottom end and then good quality rotating assembly and roller cam. Will reuse and freshen the C4 transbrake / converter.

                    Love them but think the TEA heads or the like might be a bit too much $$$.
                    Mike Gasdick 69 Cougar XR-7 , 14:1 358W Canfield heads, CalTrac's / split mono's, "Mighty Mite" C4 w/trans-brake. 11.31.so far.
                    2010 F150, 4.6L 2wd
                    2002 F250 Superduty 4x4 with a spark plug spittin', manifold crackin' , fuse box burnin , 5.4 !

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      You can get into the low to mid 10's with the AFR 220's at a 3300lb race weight. (I added 200lbs for driver weight.) It will be a good choice. I went mid 10's with a 393w and old style AFR 205's in my heavy turd. The only issue is that the AFR stuff is pretty close to being max'ed out from the factory and will eventually become a restriction if you want to up the ante and go huge with a dart block in the future. (I'm not pushing the 7721's like I have but they were ported to my current needs of a high 9 second NA 3550lb car. They have room to grow and could power a 8500 rpm, mid 8 second car if sent back to be ported for it.)

                      Although beefier than a later block, the 69-70 blocks have 1 issue-the deck height (distance from crank centerline to deck machining) is shorter than later years. Most kits are built for the later 9.503" deck height vs the early 9.480" deck height. Its not a deal breaker as zero decking a later block will often result in a near 9.480 deck. Just something to take into consideration as the top of the piston could be end up above the deck (requiring a taller head gasket) and it may raise compression more than what may be wanted. Also need to check PTV clearance when the cam is installed as it may be affected.

                      Stud girdle will do nothing to stop cap walk. Save your money. Maintaining a 6.5-7K rev limit will do more than any band aide will. A Scat 9000 cast crank will be more than enough for a stock block build, but I would use a good rod with ARP bolts.
                      Last edited by Dennis112; 03-22-2018, 07:47 AM.
                      Dennis

                      65' STANG Street/Strip

                      434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:56, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.66@140.65

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Thanks for info from everyone! Dennis, yes aware of the deck height issues. Current motor is also a 69 block and used cometic head gasket so it wasnt a diesel in compression.

                        I am researching the TEA Victor Jr heads, may be the route to go. And good info on the stud girdle- wasnít aware!
                        Mike Gasdick 69 Cougar XR-7 , 14:1 358W Canfield heads, CalTrac's / split mono's, "Mighty Mite" C4 w/trans-brake. 11.31.so far.
                        2010 F150, 4.6L 2wd
                        2002 F250 Superduty 4x4 with a spark plug spittin', manifold crackin' , fuse box burnin , 5.4 !

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          A ported Vic Jr is a decent head but this comment from the TEA website might be a little concerning "Port design can be put in Edelbrock
                          factory assemblies but flow numbers may fall short."

                          Unless you get a "good" deal on the TEA Vic Jr, I'd probably still swing for the AFR 220s (or 205's) since the cost is comparable. Proven performance OOTB and higher resale value down the road. That's just me though . . . .

                          Definitely do your research.
                          Dennis

                          65' STANG Street/Strip

                          434W NA, Victor Heads, Super Vic Intake, Bullet SR, Braswell Carb, 11.2:1, Gforce 4 Spd, 4:56, 93 Octane Pump Gas pushing 3550lbs. 9.66@140.65

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We currently have home ported Vic Jrs on KK's 408, and I am confident out of the box AFR 220's, maybe even 205's, would make more power.
                            Rob Hetzler
                            M&M member since Oct 2000, #773
                            Roxboro Dragway 2011 Top ET champion

                            My Photo Page

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Great info from both! Thanks
                              Mike Gasdick 69 Cougar XR-7 , 14:1 358W Canfield heads, CalTrac's / split mono's, "Mighty Mite" C4 w/trans-brake. 11.31.so far.
                              2010 F150, 4.6L 2wd
                              2002 F250 Superduty 4x4 with a spark plug spittin', manifold crackin' , fuse box burnin , 5.4 !

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X